My turn now Secondary appeal feedback need please? *Sigh*

[whoisyourverybestfriend]

Hi All
NC due to Personal Deets on other threads completing a jigsaw

Just been sent the pwork for my first prefence - on the waiting list (7th) and may have a good chance getting through the first stage of the appeals process ( School effectively said put us first and we will make space for you.. you will get in no probs blah blah) but thinking ahead to the second stage I intend to use the following reasons and would welcome your input

• DD is avid about History - we regularly attend Museums and exhibitions she has an interest in the Classics and Medieval periods (no idea how I prove this ) and the preferred school offers Latin as an extracurricular club ( our allocated school currently offers Latin as a GCSE but they are under consultation to change to a Co-ed - which may result in Curriculum changes ) The school has great results in History GCSE - This may sound odd but DD loves Mary Beard and wanted to try out Latin ( we did Cambridge Book One) only two schools within a 10 mile radius that do not have religous criteria offer this ( state)

The school I want DD to go to has a Performing Arts specialism and it's own Theatre. DD has been part of EXtra Curricular Orchestra Club since Year 5 (auditioned with her Ukulele and Irish Pennywhistle) and Drama she has also been in singing club. Crucially - being able to attend these extracurricular activities has increased her confidence and self esteem ( it had been noted that she has confidence issues in her reports). Being able to particpate in Performing Arts gives her a boost WITHIN the classroom to speak up and question the teacher and get more out of her learning it seems. Since she was taught in Y5 by a great Teacher who was also a stalwart of Community based Drama and Theatre her Maths levels in particular have come on leaps and bounds - she needs to have confidence in her abilities she gets this by particpating in Performing Arts . Notwithstanding this she loves the arts and wants to make it part of her school life for next few years

Size of school /breadth of curriculum =- preferred school is v large therefore able to offer more curriculum choice in year 9 than most e.g Geography and History can be taken if preferred , French , Spanish or German. 40% of Children take seperate sciences, . Local schools are smaller with limited curriculum....not sure how to word this but DD is academic but also loves Drama/Theatre/dance I want to give her the best choice possible at GCSE level in order to facilitate subject choice at Alevel and therefore her preferred career / university course.

Lastly I'm not sure I can bring this up but a Co-ed school is preferable for DD rather than an all girls school - she has a wide range of friends boys and girls at school at the moment The only other school with all teh facilities we think would be good for DD and the LAtin would be single sex at least until Year 10.

When I write this down it all seems rather flaky - how could I evidence this it is not the kind of thing you get Doctors notes for??

Any advice feedback welcomed

That sounds like a reasonable case to me. You are showing what the appeal school offers that is relevant to your daughter and is missing from the offered school. For evidence of her interests and the improvement in her confidence and self esteem I suggest you approach her teachers or those running the relevant clubs They may be happy to write a letter for you setting out their views.

Be careful about saying your daughter is academic. Stick to the fact that the appeal school has a wider curriculum than the allocated school, giving your daughter more choice and a better likelihood of getting a range of subjects that suits her interests and abilities. Saying she is academic may sound like you are suggesting she is clever and therefore needs a good school.

You can bring up a co-ed school being preferable for your daughter but you may struggle to justify that one so I wouldn't spend too much time on it.

Thank You prh47bridge I see what you mean with the "Academic" stuff - just didn't know how to word it. DD loves lots of subjects it is hard to predict what any child will go on to do. The wider curriculum choices mean she can do a college course in Catering if she wants to ( some on MN may sneer but my Dad trained as a Chef one of the few people I know who loves his job passionately) or go on to Alevels in Maths and Seperate Sciences - Provision of Further Maths etc. Or anything in between.

Am hoping the stage one appeal will come off first fingers crossed.

Anyone with other ideas how I can prove Dd wants to do Latin /Classics history desperately!?? I have tickets from an exhibition we went to recently at The British Museum ummm an Amazon receipt for the Cambridge book

She's a junior member of The British Museum (£25 per year) and you have photographic evidence of her collection of The Roman Mysteries books(£6 for 10 books from The Book People)??!!

I'm surprised, would this sort of stuff actually win an appeal????

It might, if it's a balance of prejudice case (ie the argument by the school not to admit more pupils is considered weak, and the panel decides they should take a couple more, and then they decide which of the appellants has the strongest case for admission).

I'd be a little wary of using the Latin point, though. The allocated school offers it, and that their might be curriculum changes isn't that strong an argument - after all, an extra-curricular club might close. They'll be looking at what is on offer now, not what might or indeed might not happen at an unspecified future point.

Thanks Clavinova we were actually thinking of getting her Junior Membership for her birthday but it is not established - I just remembered I emailed to enquire with the school about their Latin provision before I made the application - I could use that as evidence - more to prove that I am not making it up ??...it was a genuine reason for choosing the school - an advantage for DD above other schools. I have an entire bookshelf of History books in her room including those mentioned could be worth a shot.

Meditrina yes the allocated school does offer it at GCSE but can not confirm it they will continue as they are in such turmoil at present - whereas the extracurricular/enhanced curriculum club at the preferred school she can do on entry. What do you think? I do want to mention the Latin thing as it part of the sum why I think the school will give DD the best advantages

I do expect the case to be a balance of prejudice as we know from the outset for various reasons that the schools case is weak.- I know my case is not great - i.e I have no docs letters etc but I am hopeful

Read these:
www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/newsletter/february-2015#tab_information
www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/newsletter/march-2015#tab_information

I don't get the Latin thing at all. Her allocated school offers it at GCSE (you have no evidence that going to Co ed will alter this offer). The school you want only does it as an extra-curricular club which is surely more susceptible to being dropped as it is not timetabled and is probably run on the largesse of a kindly overworked teacher!

Again the History angle is a bit flimsy. All schools offer History to GCSE and, if they have a 6th form, to A level and all would argue that they could challenge and stretch your DD in this area.

In an appeal you are seeking to demonstrate why the school you want is the only school that can provide for your child. Not just that you want it in order to keep the options open for your DD. Everyone wants that!

The performing arts involvement is what I would pursue and provide strong evidence of, esp. if the allocated school is weak in this area.

which is surely more susceptible to being dropped

That may be true but it doesn't matter in terms of an appeal. What matters is that right now the appeal school offers something the allocated school doesn't. Speculation about what might or might not happen in future is not appropriate for an appeal. Extra-curricular activities are always potentially useful for appeal cases.

In an appeal you are seeking to demonstrate why the school you want is the only school that can provide for your child

No you are not. You are trying to demonstrate that your child will be disadvantaged if s/he does not attend the appeal school and has to go to the allocated school instead. There may be 20 other schools that can meet your child's needs but that is irrelevant. The only schools the appeal panel should consider are the appeal school and the offered school.

Speculation about what might or might not happen in future is not appropriate for an appeal.

Exactly prh! The OP is the one speculating that Latin which IS offered at the allocated school will no longer be available if, IF it becomes co ed. As you say, not relevant to an appeal. The allocated school and the desired school both offer Latin in one form or another.

As for your second point, if you are saying a child will be disadvantaged by not attending that one school that is the subject of the appeal, you are by definition saying that the appeal school is the only school that can provide for their needs.

You may want to go back and read what the OP wrote before you start pulling apart my posts!

The Latin is part of a new initiative by the preferred school as part of their "enriched curriculum" - it is definitely set to continue as it is part of a new project - they have three teachers doing it and she can do it straightaway as opposed to starting in Year 9 fingers crossed. I take on board the comments - I was asking for feedback and I will not put much brevity on it. But the proposed merger with her allocated school will definitely change the curriculum so that is a genuine worry. I have read advice before that says not to mention too much GCSe curriculum at appeals because it could change before your child starting the school and their GCSEs!!

For Performing Arts Involvement a letter from her extra curricular club drama teacher is being sought to comment on the impact her involvement in Performing Arts has had on her confidence ( Confidence /self esteem issues will be documented through her annual reports) What do you think to this - would this be ok?

Would it also be appropriate to present research outcomes to the panel - i.e This study indicates that involvement in Perf Arts has a positive outcome on Childrens learning" ( I genuinely have no clue what evidence is appropriate to present as you can probably gather)

In terms of size of Classrooms etc we can show that the school has regularly change its PAN over the last few years and evidence and I wil get the usual site plans etc etc

Don't add research studies unless they're specific to your child.

The allocated school and the desired school both offer Latin in one form or another.

If the appeal school offers Latin both as a GCSE and as an extracurricular club that is worth bringing up at appeal. If it only offers the extracurricular club it becomes less relevant.

you are by definition saying that the appeal school is the only school that can provide for their needs

You are saying nothing of the kind. You are saying that, of the two schools being looked at (the allocated school and the appeal school), the one you want is better able to provide for the child's needs. You are not by any stretch of the imagination saying that the appeal school is the only school that can provide for the child's needs. There may be hundreds of other schools perfectly capable of providing for the child's needs. Indeed, it may be that the school you have been allocated is the only one in the district that is unable to provide for the child's needs. The point is that it really doesn't matter whether or not this is the only school that can provide for the child's needs. Other schools are not under consideration. All you need to show is that the appeal school is better able to provide for your child than the allocated school.

if you are saying a child will be disadvantaged by not attending that one school that is the subject of the appeal

And this is why you make that mistake. You are not saying that at all. You are saying that a child will be disadvantaged if they have to attend the allocated school rather than the appeal school. That is why the appeal panel will only be interested in differences between the appeal school and the allocated school. They will not be interested in whether or not other schools in the area are equally able to provide for the child. Those other schools are not part of the appeal. The child has not been offered a place at any of those other schools. The only choice available is between the appeal school and the offered school.

I know exactly what the OP wrote, thank you.

Ok so Phrbridge the qualification is part of the enhanced curriculum so after school...can be started year 7 gcselatin in year 9 for allocated school...so are we saying it better not to mention this provision at all?? Thanks for the help

Just to make sure I've got this straight...

The allocated school offers Latin GCSE but they don't start studying it until Y9.

The appeal school offers Latin as an extra-curricular activity starting in Y7. I am unclear as to whether or not they offer Latin GCSE.

Assuming I have got that right I would bring it up. It will be more compelling if the appeal school offers Latin GCSE but there is a definite difference anyway in that your daughter can do Latin immediately rather than waiting until Y9. This is likely to produce a better result if she does take it on to GCSE.

For preferred school it is equivalent to a gcse qualification WJEC levels 1 and 2 graded Astar to C. Allocated school is for gcse but I've just read that you can opt to study it (but not for a qualification) in year 8 so that scraps that idea then

But ...preferred school you can start studying in year 7 for that qualification

I know exactly what the OP wrote, thank you.

Well obviously you do not prh or you wouldn't be seeking clarification in a later post.

Your response to me is an exercise in semantics and a pathetic attempt to ridicule but it really is wasted on me.

Good luck with the appeal OP. I hope you get the school that is the best fit for your daughter.

It is still something that is available immediately in the appeal school but not in the offered school. It is worth bringing up.

As I read them, prh47bridge's posts are about far more than semantics; they are pointing out some important distinctions which could, potentially, help the OP present the appeal in the most effective way and maximise their chances of success. Nobody can predict whether the appeal will succeed - not least because so much depends on the relative strength or weakness of the school's case not to admit - but presenting the case for the child to be admitted in the way that best fits the way the appeals code and appeal panel frame the decision will always help, if only a little.

I agree with others that it's worth mentioning that the appeal school would enable an earlier start to Latin. OP really doesn't need to go to the lengths of photographing the bookshelves; some statements about a child's interests can be taken on trust. Evidence of membership of clubs etc can be helpful.

Don't provide generic research studies - the panel will probably already be aware of them anyway, but they say nothing about that particular child.

Ahh thank you Panel Chair - most helpful if it is not a process you our someone you know has been through then you really have no way of knowing what it is appropriate in terms of actual evidence.

As i said before the school reassured us a place and that they would have "space" for all first preferences - knowing that they had 307 applicants somehow .. they did not raise their PAN until after waiting lists had been established it's all been a bit messy and complicated really but am a bit annoyed that they "guaranteed" places to parents when it has come to light they are not allowed to do that!

In addition the school ( as own admissions authority) did not post an appeals timetable on their website until Tuesday they have to be in next Friday but I thought they needed to give us 20 school days - it is all so confusing im submitting the required form with evidence to follow.

thanks to all for advice and feedback so far

You're welcome.

It's annoying for you that someone at the school apparently made a promise they weren't in a position to keep. They surely weren't in a position to know how many first preferences they would get and, moreover, they were wrong to imply that putting the school as first preference would give priority for admissions - in an extreme example (and assuming that the admissions criteria are the usual ones that prioritise LAC, then siblings, then dustance) it would be possible for all the pupils admitted under the distance criterion to be those who made the school their fifth preference, if they all lived closer than those who placed it first.

What I was then going to say was that none of that, though, is much help at appeal: it doesn't constitute any sort of binding contract. Even so, it is still worth mentioning. It's a bit of a stretch but (if it is true) you could argue that you might have expressed different preferences and so ended up with a different allocated school if you hadn't been misled. Your main argument, though, has to be about why this school is the better one for meeting your child's needs.

Your response to me is an exercise in semantics and a pathetic attempt to ridicule

I am not attempting to ridicule you. I am attempting to explain how appeals work. As PanelChair says, this is not about semantics. It is an important point.

Imagine that a wheelchair bound child has 20 secondary schools within a reasonable distance. 19 of these schools are wheelchair friendly, the 20th is not - access to most areas involves stairs. The LA does not give priority on medical grounds and, as a result, the child is allocated a place at the wheelchair hostile school. The parents appeal for their first choice school.

According to you their appeal will fail because they cannot prove the appeal school is the only one that can provide for their child. It is, after all, one of 19 wheelchair friendly schools in the area.

In reality the appeal would have a very good chance of success. If the appeal fails the child will have to go to the wheelchair hostile school and will clearly suffer a considerable degree of prejudice because of this. The appeal school, on the other hand, is much better than the allocated school on this point. The fact that there are 18 other wheelchair friendly schools in the area is not relevant to the appeal. The appellant doesn't have a place at any of them and the appeal panel does not have the ability to award a place anywhere other than the appeal school.

Oh, and if you look at my request for clarification, the point on which I said I was unclear was whether or not the preferred school offers Latin GCSE. The OP had not said anything definitive on this before my post.