Should I let DD withdraw from French GCSE as she's finding it tough?

[Sobek]

Year 11 DD took German GCSE last May and immediately started working on French GCSE to be taken this May. They did their first controlled assessment after 3 weeks and needless to say, most did very badly. The writing assessments were taken much later, but again marks have been poor. Almost all of the group have failed (and these are the top languages students!). Dd said the teacher has been teaching beyond the scope of the course and has over complicated matters. Some of the group don't want to take the GCSE as they've already got a German GCSE and don't want a bad grade amongst what should hopefully be good grades for most of them. Dd hasn't ever failed at anything or found any subjects particularly tough, but she is really struggling. She said the amount of time she'd need to put into French in order to do well (predicted A* but now would be absolutely delighted with a B) would mean that her other subjects would be neglected. She doesn't want to do the exam but the head says that she has no choice as it's too late to withdraw. Following something I posted about Dd2's German yesterday, I've found out that is not the case at all, and the school could pull her out.

My dilemma is this....would it be better for her to try and fail/not do greatly or, by letting her drop the subject, would that be giving her the message that when the going gets tough, you just give up? At the moment she is completely demotivated.

Do they get their grades on one certificate? Head says if she does badly she doesn't ever need to tell anyone about it, but surely if all the results are on one certificate, she can't lie?

This just brings home how totally flawed the MFL GCSE's (and teaching up to) are It infuriates me.

I would let her drop it. Because the school clearly has a crap (alternating years, wtf is that about?) system for teaching it and because of their cheating/not cheating inconsistencies and because, if she is anything like my DD, she will be worrying, trying to balance revision with CA's, etc, etc and the GCSE's are only 8 weeks away

Sobek,

Ask again. They have to tell you what the results were, FoI and all that.

I thought you said you chose the school because it had good results, Sobek. Do go back to the school and ask. It is highly likely the subject results are reported to the Governors and these will not be confidential papers. You can see the results in this way without quoting FOI.

Stupidly, I chose the school because of the published league table results, but didn't think to ask anything about the individual subjects! It was only when it came to choosing options in Y9 that I asked about this and the head said that she is aware that there are some weak departments but they don't give that information out to parents (she did say that though the governors have these results). I hadn't even thought about FOI. How would I get the results from the governors? I'm one of those parents who just lets the school get on with it and I don't like to rock the boat, but now I'm kicking myself for not asking more questions.

I am doing a MFL in an evening class, over 30 years after I took three language O Levels.

The contrast is staggering. Today all students have to do is learn stuff off by heart. (Admittedly this is quite difficult for an old dear like me compared with those with nice 16-year-old unclogged brains!) Back in my day (I say this a lot!) there were unseen translations, a short essay to write, and an aural where you had no idea whatsoever what the examiner would talk about. My sister was asked to describe the vase of flowers on the table. She nearly passed out. "Er, er, elles sont jolies? Il y a une rose? Er, er..."

Anyway, in agreement with others it sounds as if the German teacher is overly helpful, and the French teacher is a stickler for the rules. The latter would be fine if all teachers did this but it is a)unfair and b)no favour to students if they are basically memorising work written by the teacher.

All minutes of the Governing body are available to parents and this includes their committee minutes. Results are usually looked at by a "Curriculum" committee but you need to find out - from a parent governor maybe - what committee will have looked at the subject results. They are not confidential so do not let the school tell you they are! You are entitled to see any supporting papers that go to the governing body or its committees and these are likely to be the results, so don't be put off! Go to the school office and ask .

The way we teach languages in this country now is excruciating. Spent hours with DS yesterday drilling him on Spanish irregular verbs all laid out in chuffing tables. How does that connect with the living language?
I remember learning French imperfect tense by listening to a pop song that was written in it.

I'd have a chat with her. Ask her if she wants to give it a go. Spend maybe an hour a day over Easter immersing her in living French - songs with lyrics written down in front of her, TV programmes or films with UK subtitles etc, see if the language settles in a bit better, and continue with the tutor an hour or so a week. If at the end of Easter it's still stressful, just don't sit the exam.

This whole thing has made me realise how results driven the school is and that it doesn't always have the best interests of the pupils at heart.

It's a sad state of affairs Sobek and too many schools are like that. Thank goodness she has you looking after her best interests.

IIWY I would let her withdraw. It really sounds like the school has cocked things up. Let her concentrate on all her other subjects and do well in those.

I wouldn't bother submitting an FoI request or chasing down the governors. How is that going to help your dd at this stage? She will be starting her exams in less than 2 months.

lastlines - what you appear not to realise is that native speaker children also spend hours drilling verbs! It's not a weird way of teaching MFL - it's a necessary evil!

The problem with language learning in the UK is the expectation that it can all be done without sheer hard work and regular practice,

Very true, emkana.

Spent hours with DS yesterday drilling him on Spanish irregular verbs all laid out in chuffing tables. How does that connect with the living language?

(whispers) It's really helpful, actually. It gets drilled into your head the common patterns and the recurring part of the irregular forms. I think I sold my irregular (Spanish) verb book, but I used to spend hours studying it. Better than a bible.

My big criticism of UK system is that languages would be better spent as daily lessons for a whole year, not 1-4 lessons a fortnight. no no no. Daily reinforcement is best way to go.

Totally agree on daily reinforcement. My DD at a French bilingual school has 1h20 of English and 30' of Spanish every day at the same time. Native speaker teachers teaching through medium of own language.

Do they really, Bonsoir? It's true, I didn't know that. We don't in UK and we surely have more irregular verbs than most countries. Though I guess we do do spellings every week, and that's similar.

But the point I'm making is that very little time in UK language learning in schools seems to be spent learning the language as though it were alive. Years ago I taught EFL Cambridge and the system was so well structured - it made quite complex grammar simple by making it fun, relevant and most important instantly useable and flexible. Afaik, those 'learn how to speak a language in a week' sets do similar. They show you how to get fluent in a language before you get perfect at it. I think that's a healthy approach.

If you're just faced with crosses because you failed to add an extra 'i' to the past 3rd person plural in a Spanish irregular verb you pretty soon lose the will to engage, as that sort of perfectionism when people start out kills appetite for language. Imagine if we corrected a toddler's grammar every time they opened their mouths instead of praising their efforts to be understood. IRL I'm a grammar and spelling pedant but think that there's room for lots of mistakes if people are still at the stage of trying to understand and be understood.

I get that you learn the correct forms of the verbs by rote/drill, but it's dull. Learning a language should be exciting.

Language learning at secondary age is a very different process to a toddler learning their mother tongue. Ime far too much time in UK language lessons is spent on games and songs, to the detriment of solid practice and consolidation.

Sorry posted too soon. The text is one that my niece who is 13 is studying in English lessons in Germany. Compare that to what pupils of a similar age can understand at that age... Language becomes exciting when you are masterful enough to produce and understand a variety of texts. A bit like an instrument becomes really fun once you can play it well and use it with others. But that takes "dull" practice.

has a French tutor who wrote her CA out for her and then she just had to learn it!
oh, yes, I saw this very thing a few weeks ago when I was working in a school and helping DC practise for their speaking exam.
I asked one girl why she had chosen a particular word as she was stumbling over it - and it was overly- complicated.
And she said it had been written by her French tutor, had no idea what it meant, was just memorising it
(will be a massive contrast when they ask her the unprepared question!)

English verb forms are super easy compared to those of other European languages! Which is why English-speaking DC don't have to learn them by rote.

Actually it might be necessary for Sobek to get the results because DD might want to do A levels at this school. The same problems could arise all over again! Best to do a bit of checking up now.

I would pull her out, on the understanding that it was because the school's approach is poor, and on conditions (see below). I would write a letter of support to the French teacher thanking her for sticking to the rules and praising her approach; and a letter to the Governors asking for a review of the evidence on language learning. Then I would research European language camps for intensive learning/family exchanges and send her for a week's German in the summer so that at least she has something to back up that A. Pulling out of French would be conditional on her going to Germany for a week this year and probably a large chunk of the summer the year after.

Your school should have taught both French and German throughout Year 7 to Year 11 to ensure a steady continuous learning process instead of alternating between the two and creating gaps in the learning process.

What I do not understand about this "outstanding" school, is why anyone would organise teaching of languages like this. It just seems guaranteed not to get the best results. It flies in the face of any good practice for learning of languages. It is not really even in the school's interests because the children are not achieving the top grades and are probably not getting the grades they would deserve if they had receive proper consistent teaching.

I think it is a bit mean to send the OP's DD away for "a large chunk of the summer" as it appears to be some sort of punishment for the poor teaching she has received at school. If she wants to go, then OK, if the OP can afford it! However, it may not make any difference because if languages are not A level choices, it does not matter. What matters more, insome respects, is why a school who had a child studying two languages at GCSE could not enthuse her enough to continue or even bother to teach well. It is exactly why we have fewer and fewer language graduates. Poor teaching and status in too many state secondary schools.