Secondary School Dilemma

[yvette1971]

So its that time of year and we're attending lots of secondary school open days. We're mainly interested in the independent sector for dd and have hit upon a surprising dilemma...

There are two 'frontrunners' - a busy independent school (400 pupils) which prides itself on 98% GCSE pass rate (A-C incl. English and Maths); and a much smaller school (175 pupils) that has moderately lower results (91%, though some of these are IGCSE so the official league table shows much lower (like 60%). Both are selective entry.

On paper, the busier school would seem better, but I must admit that I felt the smaller school (with much smaller class sizes) just 'felt' better when I looked around.

I couldn't work out why the smaller school gets worse results with smaller classes etc. I spoke with some of the parents and pupils and it seems the smaller school does have some children with additional needs - dyslexia etc, which I don't think the bigger school has. Also, I got the distinct impression at the bigger school (from talking to pupils) that they may be 'selective' about who gets to sit which GCSE exams...

Everyone I speak to tells me to follow the best academic results. Am I wrong to just go with my heart and send DD to the school that 'feels' right? She doesn't seem to mind which of them she goes to !

This thread is so interesting. I am having a total wobble as we get the email tomorrow. Top of the list is a superselective, however the alternative is a huge comp or very small private school. I can't believe that he will do better in a year group of 20 odd than in the top set of the comp. This thread is giving me the courage of my convictions.

DD is in a state school with 80 in her year group. I'd say it is definitely right at the bottom end of what I'd consider 'big enough'.

She's mainly in classes of around 18 - it's complicated by the fact that it's a dual language school, with just one form of pupils working in Welsh medium that functions as a de facto top set (not that they'd be fiddling their WM results by pushing out lower achievers, oh no ). She actually prefers those lessons like English or French where she's in a slightly bigger group, I think because there's more 'bouncing off' of ideas.

My dd is in a small private girls school which caters for children from nursery to year 11. She had the choice of going to a very selective larger private school or stay at the one she is already at. Did was offered a substantial scholarship to the larger school and a much smaller scholarship for yr 7 in her current school. She chose to stay at her existing school. Tbh whilst I put no pressure on her I was delighted she decided to stay where she is. The reason is simple while the larger school has excellent results they have a reputation for telling pupils to leave if they have too much time off sick and in one case that I know of they put so much pressure on a child in year 7 to improve her grades (she was getting around 70% in tests which isn't that bad) she left after the first year. DD is a very quirky child and has no problems with people accepting her for who she is unlike at the state school she started in. As always on threads like this I always say choose the school which you believe is the best for you and your child and you will probably be fine

I teach in a small secondary school ( around 200 pupils) and there are many advantages. Our school plays lots of fixtures against other schools and all our pupils get to play in a team. The other schools may have more pupils to choose from, but if your DC is not one of the best, they will find they don't make the teams. The same can be said for concerts, plays etc.

As for someone in this thread saying 15 is too small for a class, I can only assume you are not a teacher. Ofsted states that for a lesson to be rated good, the teacher must get round to all pupils in one lesson. Try doing that in a 1 hour lesson with 30 pupils. With a 10 minute starter, 10 minute plenary and 10 minute lesson, that amounts to 1 minute per pupil. Then we have to mark all their books. 5 minutes marking each book per week means 2.5 hours spent each week for a class of 30. With 6 classes, that means 15 hours of marking. Of course, small classes are better!

Also don't assume you will have any clue where the best teachers are working. NQTs are hired by the top private schools as well as by the toughest state schools.

Thanks for all the replies. We have now been to "school-in-action" days at both schools, spent a whole afternoon at each, spoken to numerous teachers and (perhaps more importantly) parents at each and interrogated the bursar and trustees on the finances of the smaller school. In the end we have decided to go with the smaller school.

It has been really interesting: although, on the face of it, the larger school has more to offer (more pupils, larger classes, perceived ability to recruit and retain more and better teachers and more financial security) after looking at both schools we would never send our children there. The larger school is part of a large company that is making quite a large (and growing) financial loss every year and quite a few of the parents we spoke to at the larger school said they are not impressed with the teaching and that their children are often put under unreasonable pressure to improve (from already good marks to even better marks). They are also very selective about which pupils can sit which exams. Three sets of parents said they felt trapped once their children start studying for GCSEs because they didn't want to interrupt their children's GCSE studies at that stage. One parent even took me aside and quietly told me to not go to the school despite the outstanding exam results etc. which I thought was a very honest thing for her to do.

After our visit to the larger school we had repeated phone calls from the school office offering us a place without the entrance exam (which we have missed). We had not made our decision but they called us daily and eventually they offered us a big discount on fees if we went there. So I think I realised that there are more children at the larger school because probably a lot of them are not paying anywhere near full fees.

On the smaller school I really did my homework on their finances. There's no getting away from the fact that the smaller school has a much weaker budget and may get into difficulty. I've read the stories of schools closing. But the school doesn't have any debts and at least I am informed of what may come. Also, when a small ind. school closes parents usually have no idea and it comes as a surprise. Parents then rally around schools that are closing trying to fix the problem (usually unsuccessfully). I feel like we have a head-start - I'd like to help the school now with marketing etc.

What I've learned is 'do your homework'. Research, research and research again, ask lots of questions, and I think it is OK to follow your heart as long as you fully inform your head too!

Thanks again for contributing to this fascinating thread.

OP With our elder DS we moved from state primary to independent and he was a bright enough boy but was quiet and didnt stand out enough to get attention and accolades in a large class nor was he doing badly so he didnt get attention at that end either!

This made us look for an independent school with smaller class sizes where he wouldnt get lost. We did that. It worked really well he rocketed academically and loves school. He can get into all the interesting things eg school productions, trips which he may miss out on due to too many numbers in a larger school. From a social point of view all the teachers know the kids, the kids mix across years and so it is a very friendly place to be.

There are downsides as are mentioned above - if you like team sports you are limited to a few pupils and unlikely to have AB and C teams of a great standard. When teachers are off ( for whatever reason) they just about cover normal teaching but extra curricular falls by the wayside as there are not enough people to cover for it. As he gets older and begins to work out who he is, there are less around him who are likely to be just like him whereas I think in a larger school there are more fish in the pond.

With DS2 we are looking at a larger school. He has no problem standing out in a crowd and has a competitive nature which will not be served by a smaller school.

All in all, it depends on what is going to make the best of your child.

I always tend to think its best (for my DC) to start them at the largest school. Then if they needed to move school for whatever reason, they'd be moving somewhere smaller. This is just my gut feeling though.