Latymer Upper vs KCS / St Paul's

[windsandandstars]

This is my first post on mumsnet; please be gentle!

DS is in his final year of state primary school and is very fortunate to have an offer from Latymer (11+) and a conditional offer from Kings College School (13+). He has an interview with St Paul's (13+) next week. We live in Hammersmith, and therefore Latymer is much more convenient than Kings. The Latymer offer is also for next year, whereas for Kings or St Pauls (if by luck an offer were forthcoming) he would need to attend a prep school for 2 years and take the common entrance exam first. This seems like undue hardship on DS (as is potentially the daily journey to Wimbledon), when he could accept the place at Latymer (which is, after all, a wonderful school). But is it worth it to go to a top school like Kings or potentially St Paul's? Does the fact I'm even asking this question mean I am putting my own interests above his? Any thoughts appreciated!

Apple - anecdotally, most would says St Pauls for sciences & maths, KCS for humanities and languages but I haven't considered or investigated this myself and therefore have no opinion to offer!

Thank you Longdaze and Kcsmum. I'm so delighted to hear of happy boys and parents! I became a bit worried earlier from some of the replies.

This is what I thought, kcsmum. Curious to hear if anyone else has a view on this.

KCS is a fantastic school - I'm very surprised by the negative comments above. I have been a parent at the school for many years and have only heard positive talk from fellow parents.

The sport is a problem and my football figures speak for themselves. Yes it is a very academic school but at open days it does present itself as being super sporty as well and it isn't. It is primarily a rugby school and it's resources are focused on rugby despite the game's dwindling popularity. E.G. The Y11s were not allowed to take football as an option in the Autumn term because it left too few to play rugby.

The new intake concerns me because it will mean stretching the facilities and already limited PE staff to cover another 2 separate year groups.

We were particularly told on open days about how strong the school was for football when we visited and it just isn't true. Sport is very important to our family, if we were only interested in academics DS would have gone to Westminster. I was given the impression that KCS supports sport at the same level as St Pauls and Hampton and it doesn't.

This is a public forum and it is an important point to cover when looking at schools. Future parents interested in sport particularly football should ask the right questions at open days e.g. What extra curricular sport is available to everybody outside of normal games lessons? What football tournaments does the school enter? What are the sporting options for each year group for each term?

IME the pastoral care at the senior school is excellent, DS has lovely friends, likes his teachers, loves the surroundings and is doing very well academically; He is very happy just very disappointed with the football as are a lot of his friends.

Having re-read spinningmums comments I missed the original comment about pastoral care which IME has been very good, but I was agreeing with her general sentiments about the A level/IB transition not going very smoothly and the constant changes.

Yes rugby is the premier sport at Kings's played in the autumn term, which they are clear about and which the website makes clear. Football is offered as a secondary sport in the spring term only (along with hockey).

Rugby's popularity has not declined at King's over the last 10 years as far as I can see, why would it?

King's is well known for not being as sporty generally as some other schools e.g. Hampton (& whitgift especially), and it doesn't pretend to be.

DS is sporty and this was something we considered very very carefully. Several families we know also weighed this up carefully, and one chose Hampton over King's for the ability to play football all year round. We chose King's in the knowledge that it is more academic than sporty and that other schools are sportier. Perhaps one might be disappointed by the sports provision if one hadn't fully appreciated the situation in advance.

Thanks all for these responses. I think my DS could be happy at King's. He isn't very sporty but loves getting stuck into everything else. Sports were definitely talked up at the open day. We were mainly impressed by the range of options available and the fact that they can choose which sports to try on their games afternoons.

I can see how some sporty DSs could be duped into thinking the sport is wonderful and that's not fair. Hampton seemed the best for those where sport is very important.

My DS is one of those naturally progressing from a state primary at 11+. We are very grateful for the opportunity as there would have been very little chance in previous years. I definitely understand the concern about stretching the facilities over two new year groups. Hoping they have thought about this and planned out how it's all going to gel together.

Does KCS still play hockey? When my brother was there hockey was the second term sport rather than football.

Yes, in the Senior School hockey runs alongside football in the spring term for the boys. The girls in the 6th form play hockey both terms.

There have been some very bad injuries over the last few years, particularly concussions, and rugby is a lot less popular. It is fine to not be a football school but you shouldn't pretend to be one. Some boys play hockey but it is not as popular as football.

DS2 is also football mad and despite being very local to KCS he would prefer to go to Hampton (long school bus journey and nightmare at weekends) or Dulwich (trainableish). Having moved for the school that is why I am ranting!

Missc your DS will be fine and happy at Kings please don't be worried.

And usually the boys are allowed to play football or hockey for both terms but the football option was withdrawn for U5th for the Autumn term because they didn't have enough rugby players. There was a big decline in the number of players for the previous year as well.
DS plays rugby if there is no football, but he would much prefer to play football.

There are plenty of football fixtures at KCS - in the Senior School there is a football match each and every Saturday in the Spring Term. My DS is sporty but not outstandingly so. I feel he has been very well catered for in terms of sport both in the Junior and Senior school. It depends what you want really, friends of mine with boys at Hampton complain that unless you are at academy level you don't get a look in at football. Also, at Hampton you have to decide between Rugby or Football but at KCS you can play both.

Check the fixtures list for the older age groups Longdaze, cancelled, cancelled.......They have barely played a match this year because of the pitches at West Barnes, but it is made worse by combining 3 year groups for matches effectively reducing the number of team available. Complaints have been made and the school are meant to be addressing them over the next few weeks, but by then another season is over and it will all be forgotten about until next year.

Just going back to the original question, we are struggling to make a decision about whether to accept an offer from Latymer (the deadline is on Monday and we are still undecided!!!) or to go for KCS/St Pauls at 13. My DS is very fortunate to have offers from all three. We live nearer Latymer and St Pauls, which are a short bus ride away, but KCS would mean having to take the school coach (around an hours commute but there are others in our area that go on the bus so he would have company). My son is at a Prep school that goes through to 13 so he would stay on until then if we chose KCS or St Pauls, but he would leave next year if we choose Latymer. My son is not Uber confident but he knows his mind, is very mature for his age, is bright (very interested in computing and maths), not very sporty and could fit into most schools. This is why we are struggling. I love Latymer but I worry that he won't be challenged academically. Whilst the children do very well to get into the school I worry that the academic standard and quality of teaching is not as high as KCS. Please correct me if I am wrong as I would love to receive an advise from current parents.

Also, how does the blend of Indie and state intake work at Latymer? Do they come together easily? All the children seem well rounded and very happy.

I love KCS too but my concerns there are the commute (it seems like a long way to go for school) and also, how the three different year groups (KCJS, LS and the new boys joining at 13) will come together in 2018. I wonder if the school has given this any thought.

Visual ....

"how does the blend of Indie and state work at Latymer? Do they come together easily?"

Seriously, are you really worried about this? For goodness sake they are not different breeds of animal! I am sure your prep school boy will be fine mixing with some of the great unwashed

Clearblueskytoday, that is not at all what I meant! My son has a younger sibling at a state primary so please don't judge. He is at a Prep school because he didn't get a place at our local primary. I meant this academically in terms of subjects that some have covered and others have not (i.e Latin). Perhaps I should have been more specific.

At many 11+ schools Prep school pupils, or more specifically 13+ Prep school pupils, get a bit of a free ride in Yr 7. Whether this is a bad thing or not depends on the child. Both state and private primaries often make their minds up quite early about who is a "top table" child, so to suddenly move to an 11+ school and be towards the top of the year group can be a pleasant surprise and a chance to reinvent yourself.

In contrast kids from state schools can have the double whammy of new working methods and lots of new material. Plus an expectation that they engage in sport, music or other extra-curricular. It all sorts itself out by Year 8, when the challenge for prep school kids can be to turn on the effort again.

Hi VS. Personally, I would rule out KCS as school coaches can be quite slow due to mulitple pick-ups routes etc. Although there are far worse school commutes, you could be saving him up to 10 hours a week in wasted time sat on a coach (traffic can be a nightmare in Castelnau as I'm sure you know). And you have 2 other schools he could walk to.

I agree with NeedMore that year 7 au LU is very much a "settling in" year due to 120 new pupils coming in from a range of schools all over London. Your DS would probably have a bit of breathing space if he's done a fair bit of Latin and French - on the other hand, Mandarin is compulsory for at least 2 years and few have any knowledge of this. My DC knows a few who turned down St Paul's for LU and none of them are in the top Maths or French sets (the only subjects they are set for in Year 8), so don't worry about not being stretched. The curriculum is really innovative and fantastic actually and its up to the individual how far they want to run with it. It's a relief after the 11 plus or CE process to not have to learn for the purpose of tests all the time. If anything they're encouraged to think outside the box - or just find out what subjects they enjoy and hopefully become self- motivated to stretch themselves.

I think you are right though that there is probably less of an atmosphere of "academia" at LU compared to St Paul's. The kids are generally more streetwise and it's a school where you can be a teenager for sure (read into this what you will ). Personally, we chose LU over St Paul's as I thought the boys there (generalising again) very much saw themselves as "academics" and we found the whole atmosphere a bit stiff and rarefied. My DS thrives on having girls around and that kind of vibe, although I often think they're allowed to get away with too much at LU. But it's horses for courses.

Your DS should have s sense about where he will fit in best. Good luck!

From your description of your son and based on where you live, I would certainly choose St Pauls. No contest really.

Visual I understood your point re how indie and state gel together. From my point of view as a parent of a state boy my concern was would he be able to keep up with the standard in languages and never really having taken part in rugby, cricket, hockey etc at his primary.

You were asking in terms of LU but I had similar thoughts as he will be joining KCS in the new 11+ intake which will be approx 50/50 state/prep mix.

Your final point about how KJCS, KCS lower school and new prep entrants will integrate in year 9 was of interest to me too with regards to their not being any rivalry between the first two of these groups (having had their years 7 & 8 in separate parts of the school). I visited the offers information forum recently and it seems this has been thought about and that the new lower school will have completely separate sports teams (but will never play against their junior school counterparts) and there will be a thorough mix up of all boys from the 3 different entry points once they enter year 9 and only then will they be allocated to houses. The only shared arrangement between Junior and Senior school year 7-8s will be the coach.

Needmoresleep and 4whatthatsworth that is very helpful, thank you. It's good to know what to expect in year 7 if we accept LU and it's great that everyone is given a chance to settle in and find their feet. It's also lovely that they get the opportunity in that year to try new things out rather than it being 'full-on' from day 1. I really appreciate your honesty. I absolutely love LU and just want to be sure that I have all the information I need to make an informed decision. Lots of thinking to do this weekend. Wish me luck!

MissC, good luck to your son for KCS and well done to him for being offered a place! I wasn't able to go to the offers information forum because we have an offer for 13+ but it is great to hear about the school's plans for the LS and JS. I hope it all comes together smoothly in 2018... it sounds like the school is really thinking about it which is a good sign.

It depends what you want really, friends of mine with boys at Hampton complain that unless you are at academy level you don't get a look in at football. Also, at Hampton you have to decide between Rugby or Football but at KCS you can play both.

That's rubbish re the football level at Hampton. The Y7 teams are well below academy level, maybe one or two players in the As are only just below academy level. There are some academy players in the school across the year groups but their limited availability for school fixtures would be a negative. One thing that is true is that the As and Bs (and lesser extent Cs) play lots of matches, and even though there are DEF teams they only play a handful.

Yes you do have to decide at Hampton between football and rugby which is a bit of a pain, it would be nice to do both, one of them more casually than the other.

It all goes to show that you have to be careful reading between the lines of what the school tells you! There was one other school I remember that told me how good their football and cricket offering was and it turns out this was rubbish.

On the schools sports fixtures site you can look up a school's fixtures and see how many matches they place which could be useful for some people.