Which foreign language at GCSE?

[AnnaG]

Would love to hear your thoughts on foreign languages.

DC has to choose his GCSE options soon and has been asking which second language he should pursue. He is currently doing French. The options are: Spanish, German, Latin, Russian and Mandarin.

I've told him to go for either Spanish or Mandarin, but have my reservations about him doing Mandarin (he's already voiced out that the teacher has a reputation for being not so nice).

Which language would you say would be the most useful for the future in business, travelling, etc.

I did A level French and Latin plus ancient O level German. I have hardly ever used the German - the upside is that I don't feel completely at sea in Germany and Switzerland and recently found one of the few Swiss people who didn't speak Englsih and could ask directions hurrah! My German and Swiss colleagues speak astonishingly good English. My Alevel French was really useful travelling in Africa and enabled me to have a conversation there with Chinese expats and recently the same meeting a Chinese business delegation in London. A level Latin - I can have a go at translating Spanish documents but these days google translate is much better. Re employability, yes, many employers don't focus on languages but never underestimate the personal opportunities it can open up when you are one of the people in the company who can communicate in these languages. Personally I would pick Spanish or Russian for future use and employability but Mandarin is also a great opportunity. Business is often about relationships and being able to have even simple exchanges is always appreciated - GCSE will get you to that level and makes it easier to get better in the future if that proves useful.

"the Spanish and South American economies aren't that important."

Never heard of the BRICS? OK, they don't speak Spanish in Brazil, but Portuguese is pretty close. And Bogota and Mexico are coming up through the ranks. These are the economies of tomorrow, the ones to watch.

I did Spanish O level in 1982, and was assessed 2 years ago at having level B2 in Spanish (was tested for a job) despite never having done any Spanish since. My assistant in France had an A* GCSE in French, A at A level and a 2:1 from a RG uni. Her French was assessed at level B2 - that was for spoke, written and comprehension. Language teaching in UK these days is appalling.

Mandarin would be very tricky to learn I would imagine. although it's spoken by a lot of people and could be useful in the workplace in the future, I guess it's whether your dc has the genuine desire to earn such a language which will decide. Spanish is certainly easier and, in my experience, quite a fun language to learn with cultural similarities to our own too.

I would say just take whatever language he likes to learn.

Mandarin isn't difficult. And useful even in Japan. The metro signs outside the centre are only in kanji and so are the bus stops. And bus signs. I used it when I travelled in Japan.

It's got a very very simple grammar. It's just got the reputation as being difficult.

And I don't think you should pick for future business use. No one can see that far!

My ds is very interested in engineering and may well like the opportunity to study and/or work in Germany - the pay is much better and the sector is very highly regarded. Whilst GSCE German may not be sufficient, it seems a good foundation on which to build at A-level or during a summer intensive language course abroad.

this is a good indicator of how difficult languages are for English speakers.

If he's starting from scratch and aiming to do a GCSE in two years, I'd say Spanish. As a romance language it's got a lot in common with French.

Latin's great, but quite complicated -- two years isn't really enough (I did O level and had been learning it for four years). I suspect the same may be true of German. And Mandarin is from an entirely different family of languages, so, again, perhaps less easy to pick up in two years. Maybe not, though.

Russian isn't as difficult as you might think. The alphabet is straightforward to learn, and the grammar is a lot less difficult than some other languages. I managed to pick it up in 18 months to a decent O level standard back in the middle ages, without a huge effort.
If you can learn something slightly more unusual, then why not? My DS did 4 languages to GCSE before heading down the Maths route, and it often comes up as a talking point at interviews etc.

The thing is I'm sure the GCSE grades are reflective of the difficulty of the language. So Russian and Mandarin GCSE would not be significantly more difficult to achieve than Spanish.

Spanish is not like Portuguese! We have just come back from Brazil and the Spanish speakers in our group were at a complete loss to understand Portuguese! They definitely could not speak it. Portuguese is a Latin language and has words closer to French and Italian. Brazilians also told us they struggled to understand Portuguese speakers from Portugal because it was spoken differently!

For Engineering, French or German are great. A lot of our best Universities will offer a year abroad in year 3 of a 4 year MEng course and, provided you have passed the language tests applied by the University, you will be considered. It is possible to pass the tests with a good GCSE pass, but obviously an A level or an intensive course is better.

milly when people say two languages are very similar, it means you can pick it up via immersion without lessons. I have heard this from Brazilian about Spanish. And also Swedish/Norwegian. An English speaking adult would struggle to do so with Persian for example.

And the immersion isn't a short holiday. It does take time. I have done it during my years at university. My parents cannot understand this language but both me and my brother learned it via classmates. Now 20 years later I can't speak it anymore but can understand broadcasts of it still.

MrsSchadenfreude - I like your link! It acknowledges the truth about German - it is a lot harder for native speakers of English that many other European languages.

Milly Mario Pei would disagree with you about Portuguese being more akin to Latin than Spanish
In French schools German is regarded as a harder language than Spanish for native French speakers.

It is absolutely true, isn't it, Bonsoir? But I am not sure why! I think a lot of it is in the grammar, as so much of it is alien to English - separable verbs, sending the verb to the end sometimes, other times it always must go second in the sentence, the three genders and having to remember how they go in the accusative, genitive and dative cases! I think there is often the thought that German must be easy, as it looks like English - Hier ist ein Haus is easily recognisable to most speakers of English.

Of the languages I've learned, I think Spanish is the easiest. Dutch is also easy, but follows some of the odd German rules (I learned Dutch in my 30s, and my German was already fluent, so this may have influenced my thinking). Then I would say German. Slav languages are much harder, due to the grammar - the Cyrillic alphabet is no big deal.

German is deceptive: it is easier to learn to read and spell than French as the correspondences between sounds (phonemes) and spelling (graphemes) are regular. And some of the most basic vocabulary is similar to English. But the grammar is a beast!

I think when you start learning German, you are lulled into a false sense of security, as it does seem all so regular and, as my German grandmother used to say "Just like English!" It is when you get beyond the regularities, and similarities of "Lumpi ist mein Hund" and "Lieselottes Haus" and need more grammar, that it starts to unravel. And it is a long time before it starts coming naturally, with the word order etc.

German is definitely my strongest spoken foreign language, but if I have, eg medicine, and the information leaflet is in several languages (except English), I am still more comfortable reading it in French or Dutch!

I'd go for Latin.

I did three years of Latin at secondary school and it has stood me in good stead in many fields ever since.

I'm not sure GCSE language courses provide 'real world' useful language education.

Much better to study something that demonstrates intellectual rigour and will also be useful with a number of languages (including English).

It probably depends on what sort of brain you've got. My DD opted for German - probably because of the factors Bonsoir and MrsS mention - but she seems quite happy with the word order etc, she says that it's very formulaic.

Personally (speaking as someone who has studied 4 out of the 5 languages on your list) I wouldn't be worrying remotely about which one will be most useful.

Any one of them could be useful in future, who knows what direction he might take.

Far better to go with one where he is interested in the country or culture, and has a bit of motivation to learn it. Passion for your subject goes a long way.

It's not just an academic exercise (well, apart from Latin perhaps ), it's about engaging with other people, other cultures, and it helps massively if you are interested in those other cultures and actually want to engage with them.

(Though I would think about class sizes as well. He might well gain a lot more from doing Russian with say, 15 other people than doing Spanish in a class of 30.)

If doing French already then Spanish fairly easy and the best "global" language IMO. Mandarin would almost certainly be both useful and difficult but personally I wouldn't encourage unless he had a genuine interest in China.

I disagree with the above poster about Mandarin GCSE being "incredibly difficult": though the language itself takes a long time to master, the GCSE isn't that bad. My son did it, and he got an A* despite being a native English speaker.

Latin is not very useful, but the prose and poetry are wonderful. I took it because my sister was dating the Latin teacher, and stayed with it because I had crushes on the (female) Latin teachers. It’s a great subject for someone interested in literature, law, or medicine/vet work.