GCSE options advice required.

[thehumanjam]

Ds1 will be choosing his options shortly and he/we are unsure whether he should select a modern language.

The compulsory GCSEs are English, English Literature, Maths, Double Science and RE. He then has to choose 4 options from the following subjects:-

French, Spanish, History, Geography, Textiles, Product Design, Catering, Art, Drama, Film Studies, Business Studies, Music, Computing, PE and Triple Science (only top group can opt for triple science).

Ds eventually wants to study Automotive Engineering and is very strong in Maths/Science.

Out of the 4 options ds wants to choose History/Geography (still undecided likes both), Triple Science, Product Design and Computing. However they are strongly advised by the school to select a modern language and are told that Universities expect students to have the Ebacc subjects. Ds does not enjoy modern languages at all, he could probably scrape a C in French if he put his mind to it but he doesn't relish the idea of taking French GCSE. The other dilemma is which of his other 4 options does he drop? He does not want to drop triple science because he wants to do Engineering and it's his strongest subject, he needs to keep a humanities subject for balance (and it's Ebacc subject anyway) Product Design is required for some Engineering courses, it's also a requirement for A level Graphics which he hopes to take and he loves it! He also loves Computing and a career in Computing is on his plan B. So we are stuck .

It's too far ahead to be talking about universities yet however we are possibly looking at Loughborough standard for first choice and somewhere like Oxford Brooke's as back-up.

We have the options consultation coming up soon and will have an opportunity to discuss with teachers in more detail then. I think ds would really like to drop French and I am in agreement but don't want him to do this if it will go against him when he applies for universities. If he does take French we have no idea what other subject to drop.

I would say that he should take the things he enjoys and is good at - more chance of getting top grades in them. It sounds like he has a very clear idea of what he wants to do with his life - do universities really want a language for a student who is clearly capable in other subjects?

I would normally encourage pupils to try to get the EBacc, which includes a MFL. However, if he is that bad that he will only scrape a C then I would encourage going for another subject that (a) he is likely to get a better grade in and (b) is more relevant to his career.

Is there any possibility of him liking German? (I'm thinking it's more relevant to engineering)

I wouldn't encourage him to specialise this early but Hist/Geog and RE gives the breadth.

Thank you both.

Senua, I think ds would actually enjoy German more, I know I did! Unfortunately it's not taught at his school.

We will have a chat with his teachers at the options evening. Ds is anxious as they have been told that if they opt not to take the Ebacc subjects questions will be asked! I've tried to reassure him that they probably just want to make sure that pupils are making informed choices and not opting for too many soft subjects which could hinder their options further on.

I suspect OP that the school is more interested in their league table ratings as regards the EBacc subjects. At dds school they have to take either a humanity or a language for balance but not both so many schools don't insist on it. Agree with other posters that choosing his best subjects and ones he is interested in is the best way forward.
It is possible to take Computer Science at A level without taking the GCSE provided he has high enough grades in Maths. Some schools only allow pupils in the top maths sets to take Computer Science GCSE.
My dd is in Y10 and is taking Product Design and loving it. As well as practical work there is also theory and design work (including using computer packages). She finds it a good contrast to her other subjects.
I would look up entry requirements for the universities you are interested in to check whether any specific GCSEs are required (other than English, Science and Maths).

Some Unis require a foreign language at GCSE, I think its UCL

It's difficult to try and second guess what universities will be looking for in 4 years time, and I guess that's partly why the schools are keen to ensure students have the ebacc covered if possible
2 years ago when my DS was researching universities for an engineering degree, even imperial did not require you to have MFL, they were happy for you to take it as an option if needed
So sorry, not really an answer, if it helps, DS didn't do a MFL but got 5 offers from excellent universities so it didn't hold him back.
Plus, as the cap on university student numbers is increasingly being relaxed, it would suggest more places will be available.
Having said all that, I will encourage DD (also year 9) to keep the subjects required for ebac but she is likely to go down the English/Drama route which is very oversubscribed

Lboro Uni will not give a figleaf about MFL gcse.

UCL does not require a MFL GCSE but wants those who do not have it to learn a language while they are there to a certain standard. I do not know of a university that want the Ebacc and am pretty shocked if the school said that. The Russell Group unis have a certain list of A levels they take seriously but that is different. Don't forget that Ebacc is just a recently made up bit of tosh from the government - I suspect schools are pushing it only because it might affect a league table ranking. My opinion is that the school is giving out rather dubious advice. I happen to think languages are incredibly important but this all sounds very odd.

I am an MFL teacher at secondary and even I would tell your son not to do French which he doesn't like instead of computing or history which he does.

He has a good range of subjects there, not a list of soft (or seen as soft) choices at all, history (or geography) and computing both on the Progress 8 list so will count towards that measure. If that's what he likes then let him do it.

While we do want students to take up our subject, the last thing any teacher wants (to be totally honest) is students being forced into doing French (or example) while hating it. It's not a good thing for anyone IMHO.

the humanjam:

I think Universities are rather caught in the middle at the moment with the uncoupling of AS Levels from A levels - so many will be putting more emphasis on GCSE results. Unfortunately it's all change for them & us parents at the moment and it's really difficult to predict what is desired - but UCAS forms will request GCSE results and in tightly competitve courses the better your 10 GCSE results - the better your chances at entry.

Here is what the Russell Group Universities say:

www.russellgroup.ac.uk/faqs#2

Is it true that a Modern Foreign Language at GCSE or equivalent is required for entry to Russell Group universities?

Our institutions very much value language skills but there is no universal entry requirement that students must have studied a Modern Foreign Language at GCSE or equivalent. However, there may be course-specific requirements, so we strongly encourage students to check universities’ websites for details of these.

Currently University College London (UCL) is the only Russell Group institution to require a Modern Language GCSE at grade C or above for all of its programmes. However if you did not take a Modern Foreign Language GCSE, or if you got a D grade or below you can still apply to any UCL degree programme, and it won’t negatively affect your application. You will not be rejected just because you don’t have it but you will need to complete a short course in a modern foreign language, either on a summer school or in the first year of your degree, to catch up.

Please see www.ucl.ac.uk/prospective-students/undergraduate-study/application-and-entry/ug-requirements for more details.

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At the moment most Universities aren't really posting what they require at GCSE. And for A levels it really tends to be 3 - often subject related - so for Engineering they'd be looking for Maths, maybe a science + A/N other (computing/ English/ Physics/ D&T/ etc...)

So I think my advice going forward would be to make it clear to your DS that having an additional language would be useful, may be attractive to a prospective employer but isn't essential at this level. So if he drops his language now - he may have to accept that he may have to pick it up later - and that would be in addition to his normal course load at Uni or evenings whilst at work.

One alternative - is that during summer breaks - he could look into taking intensive language classes - especially the break between sixth form and Uni - when often Universities offer these intensive language courses. Local adult education schools also offer language courses in evenings - so that could be an alternative.

If automotive engineering is his thing obvious language choices:

European: German

Asian: Hindi
Far Eastern: Chinese

these presently are the manufacturing power houses for cars. Do bear in mind that the automotive industry in England is greatly reduced - some say dying. Of course things may be different in 10/20 years time - but if it's automative industry he's interested in - working abroad or at least with foreign partneres is likely.

Ds is anxious as they have been told that if they opt not to take the Ebacc subjects questions will be asked!

I had similar back 'in the day', I got around it by the art teacher allowing me to do art outside the usual timetable and pointing out that an O Level (yes I'm that old) was better than a CSE (I was definitely CSE level for French).

I think the same still applies, an A in computing/science etc is better than a possible C in an MFL, and if he would have to work hard to get that it may well be a D grade.

I disagree with Pastsell about German, German engineers often use English in meetings and yoru ds could actually study engineering in Germany with English as the language of instruction.

In fact that could be his answer, "I intend to study engineering in Germany, I will learn the language while there"

At the moment, the majority of universities don't give a monkeys about Ebacc although a tiny proportion insist on a language at GCSE - the UCAS site will tell you this info. They will insist on certain grades/points and specify subjects for certain courses in many universities at Level 3 (e.g. A2). A small number also insist on specific grades at GCSE English and/or Maths depending on the course.

Do an undergraduate course search in the UCAS site and in each university's Entrance Requirements for the course it will tell you what A level grades (or UCAS points) and specific A level subjects are needed and if you click on the GCSE tab it will tell you of any GCSE requirements.

My advice would be to keep his choices fairly broad at this stage, starting from his baseline of wanting to do engineering and taking triple science. His path may differ in two years' time (if he's anything like my son he's gone from air traffic control to radiography via pharmacy lol)

Also, there are hundreds of academic institutions out there that are non-Russell Group. The RG universities are considered (by themselves) to be the cream of the crop for research. This does not necessarily equate to teaching, and in our experience, neither does it always mean the facilities are better.

Agree that my experience is universities do not require an MFL, and universities do not take any notice of the supposed 'Ebacc' group of subjects.

He'd be daft to do a subject where he would be aiming to "scrape a C" as opposed to one where he will be aiming much higher.

Yes, MFL is always seen as a positive thing, but As and A*s are seen as more positive than Cs or Ds or Es.

DS is currently looking at engineering courses (year 12). We have not found any with gcse requirements apart from UCL who want a MFL. At A level they all ask for Maths , Physics and preferably further maths. Computing has been on the liked list for electrical engineering, and chemistry required for chemical engineering. We have not yet found a course requiring GCSE product design, which is good as DS did not take it.

Dd has also been to,d by a couple of teachers at her school that she won't get into a decent uni unless she has ebacc.

I've done some reading and also quizzed her HOY and form tutor about this and believe that such a statement is wrong.

Tutor admitted the school will push her to ebacc for their league tables. Hoy said dd should choose what makes her happy and not worry about ebacc.

Your DS sounds very like mine. Mine's Y10 and did French under pressure from the school (that they "expected" the top set to take a language, and somehow he was in top set, but I think that might just have been timetabling and him being top set English) - and gave him a level 7 in his SAT which looked promising.

He's bitterly regretting taking French, and I'm wishing I hadn't put pressure on him too - he hates it, won't learn and is now predicted a D.

It's not true that all the Russel Group require it - I think there's only one university that does (not Oxford or Cambridge). It's the schools that want them to do a langauage as it helps their EBAC results - but that's of no use to the child themselves. Nobody puts EBAC on their CV or university application.

He's wishing he'd done PE, art or tech - all of which he'd probably have got a B in quite easily. But it's too late now to change :( The only option would be to drop it altogether (so do 9 GCSEs not 10, as he's doing the triple science) and spend the time in with the remedial English group - which is something I'm planning to ask the school about next parents' evening. Not that he really needs the remedial English, but failing to learn French doesn't seem to be getting him anywhere.

Dd has also been to,d by a couple of teachers at her school that she won't get into a decent uni unless she has ebacc.

Jesus :( A quick look at university admissions procedures would show that's not true. Teachers and schools don't do themselves any favours by doing that sort of thing.

We had the options evening last week. I think ds got the wrong end of the stick, the message that the school were trying to get across was that students should not limit their options at this stage by being too narrow in their choices or choosing too many soft options. Ds's form tutor agreed that it makes sense for Ds to drop French. It's a shame that he doesn't enjoy languages more as a poster said up thread a language could prove to be beneficial in the industry he is interested in.

I agree that the future of the car industry isn't exactly bright and that's something ds will have to consider when the time comes. Perhaps Mechanical Engineering will keep more doors open for him. Anyway it's years before he has to consider that.

Thanks for advice everyone.

Would highly recommend Geography. DS loved the course and is planning on doing A-Level. Very physical course with the study of volvanoes and the living world whereas history is endless coursework and essay writing. Geography is a short answer exam paper with one decision making exercise at the end DS says DO GEOGRAPHY

I persuaded my maths and science geek DS1 to do French GCSE as it would make his GCSEs broader. Big mistake. 4 A*, 7 A and a C in French later, it just looks like he couldn't be bothered to work hard at a subject he didn't enjoy, when in truth, he worked really hard at French. (And hated it) In retrospect, I should have let him take one 'soft' option and he may have got another A and actually enjoyed it.