sutton trust/uniq - qualification criteria

[BrendaBlackhead]

Dh and I have both been to university and dh is hrt payer.

Does this eliminate ds from trying to access the above programmes? It's not as if we are rolling in it - ds goes to comprehensive school and just because we went to university (ahem) 30 years ago does not give us special insight into the HE system of 2015. I also wouldn't say that because of our degrees we zoomed up the social hierarchy and are now hobnobbing with the great and the good.

They both clearly state the criteria that they look at. I don't think it automatically eliminates him but it might make it less likely.

Brenda my dd got in last summer. I would say the most important thing is to have a high number of A at GCSE. She had 8 so not bad but not straight A.

We live in a fairly affluent area so I was a bit surprised she got in tbh. But I think the A are the crucial thing. I work at a school where many would qualify in terms of being disadvantaged but lack the A.
Dd is really glad she went. She might never have thought of applying for Oxford otherwise.

Sorry should have clarified that this was the Uniq summer school. I think the Sutton Trust puts more emphasis on family background.

Thanks for posting this, Brenda. I went to uni & was wondering the same thing. My parents didn't have any qualifications (not even O levels) since they're both from rural communities in Jamaica (both came from farming families) where they were expected to go into farming so left school at fairly early ages. It does seem unfair that, given our actual family background, just my having attended uni counts against him. He didn't get any As so there's no point in applying to the Oxford summer school (Uniq), I guess. He did get very good results but A's not As. I'm wondering if there's any point in applying to the Sutton Trust one now.

Why do you think your child should be prioritised over one whose parents haven't been to university?

You may not be hobnobbing with the great and good - not many graduates are- but you clearly value and recognise the importance of a university education, which you have passed onto your child. Someone whose parents are manual workers or long term unemployed or from a traveller community will clearly not have the same aspirations and encouragement as your child.

It is those kids that need doors opening, not your kids.

titchy just because you didn't go to university doesn't mean that you are a manual worker or long time unemployed and don't value education. It is possible to be a combination of all three!
In a perfect world all applicants would be selected on an individual basis without the need for crude filters. Whatever filter used will mean that some pupils are left out.

I realise that I was giving examples... The fact is there are limited places on widening access initiatives and priority is correctly given to kids who are less likely to have university aspirations.

And statistically you are less likely to go to university if your parents didn't go, you live in a particular postcode type area and your school has lower than average GCSE results.

You need a combination of high grades for your (state) school and the school itself shouldn't be one which sends lots of pupils to Oxford and Cambridge. And that's before getting into the quality of the supporting statement. That's the point of the scheme - it was funded to encourage wider access. The fact that both parents went to university themselves will inevitably mark someone down (or rather, not mark them up). From your posts OP, I would say that you are in a much better place to advise your DS than many kids applying, so fair do's if he doesn't get a place. It won't make that much difference to an application in any event - what helps is the grades and the context that helped an applicant onto the scheme, more than the fact of attending the week itself.

Uniq - In selecting participants we look at:

The number of A* at GCSE compared with the average performance of the applicant’s GCSE school
Academic attainment and history of progression to Oxford at the applicant’s A-level school
Home postcode data
Personal statement
Polar 3 Data

Sutton Trust - Priority will be given to students who meet all or most of the following criteria:

will be the first generation in their family to attend university
have been eligible for free school meals during secondary school
have achieved at least 5 A/A*s at GCSE, 5 A/B passes at National 5 or equivalent and are taking relevant subjects in relation to the subject stream they are applying for
attend schools or colleges with a low overall A-level, Higher/Advanced Higher (or equivalent) point score and / or schools or colleges with low progression to higher education
come from neighbourhoods with low overall progression rates to higher education or high levels of socio economic deprivation

So on the whole not for well or pretty well off grads with kids at good schools, as I said. There are plenty of open days and subject days for those DC to get clued up independently and very likely their schools are in a reasonable position to help them. It would be wrong for them to snatch a place on the UNIQ scheme, when there are plenty of kids in greater need.

I think the fact that parents are posting here whinging pretty much demonstrates that their own university education has sharpened their ambition for their child!

There are some pretty offensive assumptions in this thread about families where no one has been to uni. As I said, I come from exactly that background & my parents had greater ambitions for me than I ever could for my kids. They saw a degree as the key to a better life so please stop assuming that people from poorer backgrounds have low expectations for their kids. As it turns out my degree hasn't actually opened any doors for me as I timed my graduation for the start of the recession in the 90's and, as we were living in the US at that point, I basically wound up with a large student loan to pay off. I found another career route & basically worked my way up from the bottom of my field but I still believe that uni was worth it.

Just to get the thread back on track, there is no harm in applying regardless of circumstances. Nothing ventured, etc. FWIW, Uniq definitely don't reject just because your parents have been to uni ;) I'm not sure they actually ask that question.

They do ask the question Decorhate as well as parental occupation, though the critical factor is school and then postcode. There's no harm to an individual in applying obviously but the scheme is expensive to run and run by virtue of a generous charitable donation and is specifically directed at certain kids. My own view would be that it shouldn't actually be crowded out with kids from well off backgrounds whose parents are well able to access open days and info independently.

Sammy3 the assumption that those whose parents haven't been to university are more likely to be disadvantaged as opposed to those with at least one graduate parent runs right through all the access schemes and is based on very solid statistical data. That isn't offensive, simply fact. It's not even necessarily about low expectations but on a whole host of factors.

It wasn't unusual even at a good school in the 70s/80s for kids to be the first people in their families to be contemplating university. University attendance mushroomed in that period. It is far more unusual today for kids to have both parents who didn't attend university. Not wierd unusual - but still, much less common than when I was at school (only a very small number of my school friends (maybe a tenth of the year in total) had parents who were graduates. About half my year went on to university. Our kids are now approaching that stage or already there - and being a prospective first generation student is much more unusual and difficult than it was in my day. I agree that the benefit of having parents who went to university in a completely different environment - grants not loans etc - is sometimes overstated. But still. Our kids grew up with the idea that uni is a viable perhaps even expected outcome of school. Other kids didn't. When I was a kid there was a feeling that the world had changed and that anyone could do anything if they were clever enough. Society was more equal. Society is now far less equal and there's a far more entrenched feeling of some things being for some people, and other things being for other people. It needs to be challenged. I guess these courses are one small way of doing that.

Sorry, Molio, I wasn't referring to the concept non-graduate parents as a measure as offensive. It was actually the comments someone made about their idea of what poor families are like (implied lack of ambition). I think what I & the OP were looking for was exactly the sort of things you & a few others mentioned: how much the first in family bit affect their chances on the 2 schemes. So, thanks for the info. I wasn't going to respond to that other offensive comment but, having grown up on a council estate & then a poor neighbourhood in the US, I felt I had to say something as I actually know what families from that background are like.

Titchy was being a bit argumentative for some reason. Uniq and Sutton Trust give clear criteria, and clearly keep things objective. Uniq do ask for info about parents going to uni etc, but that is only on a data gathering page, and doesn't form part of the actual application.

My dd2 is currently applying for both. It's highly unlikely she'll get offered a Sutton Trust place (parents and some grandparents went to university), but she might have more chance with Uniq - she goes to a good comp, which sends maybe one student to Oxbridge each year; she got the best GCSE results in the school and lives in a dodgy postcode area! I certainly wouldn't feel at all guilty if she were offered a place - there are other reasons why I think it would be good for her to have as much encouragement as possible to aim high.

Gently, that's a very good point: our generation did have a different outlook to kids of a similar background today. I sense the same shift to lower expectations as you. I've seen it in the children of friends and family. It seems to come from external sources rather than from their parents or family. When I was growing up, the 11+ was seen as a wonderful thing because it meant going to grammar school & getting out of the low income cycle that our families were in. With that in mind, the criteria we're discussing makes more sense.

I think there is a way to go to encouraging pupils in state schools to apply to Oxbridge, regardless of family situation. Certainly in this area non-selective comps get very few applying. This is not what I would class a deprived area.
Sadly many teachers also have outdated notions of what Oxbridge is like and discourage pupils from applying. I overheard a conversation today along those lines which made me quite cross.
I'm guessing that Uniq have enough funding to have some spaces for pupils who don't come from a deprived background. And they only want those with lots of A*...

Provided he has never attended an Indi school there is no harm in trying the sutton trust, but he would not be a high priority applicant. DS is going to apply as neither OH or myself have a first degree, but we realise that as he attends a grammar school sixth form this will count against him.
Cambridge university are running some saturday subject masterclasses with the sutton trust for year 12s this year. I dont know if other unis are also doing so. The criteria for these is not as restricted.

Atia I'd have thought she would be very likely to get a place and as you point out, there can be a plethora of reasons why a particular child might need extra encouragement.

Thanks for the latest replies. I'm going to encourage DS to apply to Sutton Trust since he meets some of their criteria. I didn't know about the Cambridge master classes so that's really useful. It's quite far from us but I'd have to see if he could get a train if there are spaces on the next batch (history is full on the current one). I'm now curious if any Uni's near us do the same sort of thing so I'll tell him to look that up.

I just wanted to update you on my DS in case anyone comes across this thread when considering applying for Sutton Trust in the future. DS was rejected. I went to uni but his dad didn't (that was asked on the application form). DS went to a state school for GCSE (not grammar or independent). Our postcode is polar 2 but I've no idea what the threshold is. So I think he met a few of the criteria as he did have the required GCSES results, but I guess it was mainly the fact that I attended uni that meant he missed out. Perhaps the OP will update this thread as well so others might know their chances in future.

Dd2 didn't get a Sutton Trust offer either, as expected. She did get accepted onto a UNIQ course, which we're all very pleased about, and she added her details to The Student Room UNIQ stalking page.