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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

I'm a weeny bit cross that there hasn't been a SW/W London Independent schools thread this yr.

999 replies

SonorousBip · 03/01/2015 21:46

Every blinking year there is one - and I read, and nod, and note. Sometimes they go on for months and pages. But this year, when I'm actually doing it - pah, not a sausage.

If anyone wants to do a last minute SPGS/Latymer/Godolphin/ KGS/LEH/WHS/PHS thread, please do! (disclaimer - I'm not doing all of those.). But views welcome. Because I've got several days to form my final views Smile

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Poisonwoodlife · 21/01/2015 00:28

where'sthebeach I think it may be nearly oversubscribed / subscribed on top preferences, heavily is probably overstating it. For a couple of years the demand did not really reflected the feedback from parents, perhaps because people felt safe chancing other less likely options for their other preferences on the basis there would be places there. Then the fact there were places there / not so many had gone from individual primaries in the years before made it feel a bit of a gamble and no one is more risk averse than a parent in relation to their child's education. Last year they made 250 offers for 180 places and the Governors wrote to parents with offers to say that they should accept quickly as they had a record number of applications (they were up 46% for all preferences) with a record proportion coming from local schools. It opened with a full cohort.

Obviously in East Sheen / Mortlake most parents in the local schools were traditionally pretty resigned to difficult decisions at 11, move/ go private/ further afield /out of borough, and children going off to all sorts of destinations, a lot private. Once RPA has large numbers of parents at East Sheen, Sheen Mount etc having confidence in it , and it is judged outstanding which it appears on course for, then it is on track to be another Teddington / Orleans Park and oversubscribed 5 times on first preference. Of course in East Sheen the presence of a good state option is going to mean some going state instead of private but think of how many new primary places came online seven years ago...........

One thing that is barely factored into Council forecasts is the pent up demand they release when parents have the choice of a good school. If the proportion of state school pupils leaving state primaries was the average of the 10 most affluent London boroughs (and it is not above average in terms of affluence) then it would require two new 5 form entry secondaries in addition to the places they have planned to come online to accommodate the pupil bulge. Which is why I don't think the private schools are too worried about demand........

Beingfrank · 21/01/2015 09:31

Castles, I really feel for you. For what it's worth I think KGS has made the exam a lot harder. Does anyone else remember the easy sample maths questions that used to be on the website? When ds1 sat (and got a general interview plus offer) KGS was the school that his friends who didn't get Hampton or Latymer went to, and the exam was much easier than those schools.

In this context I think that the stuff on the web link that KGS sent was a little misleading: "The tests for entry to KGS at 11+ are broadly in line with the expected standard gained from National Curriculum teaching at Key Stage 2 in English and Mathematics. Neither you nor your child should be too daunted by these examinations; in the main, we are looking as much for potential as acquired ability. Some schools will not have covered all the topics in the Mathematics paper yet and we are quite used to this."

This paragraph doesn't really chime with their telling castles that they interviewed the top 300 from the test, does it? Or am I just bitter?!

Waitingandhoping2015 · 21/01/2015 10:08

I do think KGS has made the exam harder, but this shouldn't make much difference in terms of producing a normal distribution of results. DS said the maths was harder than the sample questions on the website.

City of London Freemans in Ashted is Co-Ed and might be s good alternative depending on accessibility. Even says on the website that if you missed the Jan exam then they may set another in Feb or March. And they have entry at 12+.

Twickersm0m · 21/01/2015 10:35

Has anyone heard about the 10+ results for KGS yet? Aren't potential 10+ candidates supposed to be interviewed on Saturday the 24th of Jan too? Thank you for the 11+ English Inteview tips.

wheresthebeach · 21/01/2015 10:47

Thanks Poison. I loved the school and the vibe. Afraid dyslexic DD will be lost in the shuffle tho'. Thought of RPA was great and that she really has a vision.

I agree Being that the KGS exam is a lot harder than they admit and the maths questions on the website are misleading. My DD did 10+ last year (I wanted to see how she coped with exam pressure so she did it unprepared) and she said the maths was a lot harder then the samples. Feedback we got was that it was her maths that let her down.

Wonder if the new head has decided to make it harder? Grammar school background if I remember properly so maybe a change of focus?

Shame really.

Juliemohan · 21/01/2015 10:50

Hi Twickersm0m,
I am waiting to hear from KGS about the 10+ too. No news yet. They did say the interview is to be held on the 24th:/

wheresthebeach · 21/01/2015 10:51

Sigh. Should read 'thought head of RPA was great...'

Alana1975 · 21/01/2015 13:23

My DD sat both KGS exam and LEH and her opinion that maths was harder at KGS. She also expected that LEH paper would get progressively harder by the end of it but it was not a case.

Interestingly one of the boys I know sat Hampton, KCS and one more highly academic school and he found that hampton maths was the most challenging one.

KingscoteStaff · 21/01/2015 13:24

Do we think that an invitation to attend the JAGS sports scholarship assessment means that the child must have a place? (DD's best friend's mum is fretting...)

EdithWeston · 21/01/2015 13:29

It all depends on when they were invited to attend. If they're like Alleyns, assess all applicants and send the invitation before the exam, then no it means nothing.

If they're like PHS/Emanuel and assess only those who look strong on paper, but invite before exam sat (though actual assessment afterwards) again it means little (strong performer might have an edge if they're borderline academically).

If they invite after the exam, it probably means they're in the offer/wait list offer zone.

castlesintheair · 21/01/2015 13:34

I agree that the maths must be a lot harder than they suggest on their website at KGS. It was what let my DD down too. I don't think you're bitter Beingfrank. I think we're just all a bit shocked about how competitive it has become and I know that I am feeling a teensy bit misled. This bit that you quote from their website: "Some schools will not have covered all the topics in the Mathematics paper yet and we are quite used to this." does certainly not ring true for us, as in DD1's overseas school they haven't covered any of it!!! wheresthebeach, someone else said the new head may have changed things. Agree it is probably the case. My son's English teacher said she was looking at the 13+ paper he has to sit (even though he has a place Confused) and she thought it was unbelievably hard. Gulp!

On a more positive note, I hear from my friends in the Borough that all the state schools are really on the up especially with new 6th forms. When I visited RPA 2 years ago I really liked it.

Dinocroc · 21/01/2015 14:06

Still no word on KGS 10+ here either. . .. hmm mm. DS only comment was that the maths was like 'Countdown maths' Grin. My maths is not brilliant but if they pick the top 300 scores it makes no difference how hard the paper is. The marks form a normal distribution. In fact a harder paper may be fairer as 'silly mistakes' have less bearing on a wider mark range. Out of interest both DS1 and DS2 thought Hampton maths much harder and with a few things they didn't recognise from state primary . Good luck all ,may the phones ring with happy news!

DarkBlueEyes · 21/01/2015 14:27

Hot off the press. Surbiton letters will be posted on Friday.

Feel sick at the very thought.

Dinocroc · 21/01/2015 15:51

Breaking news...just got a call for general interview Sat ( 10+ KGS ) so they have not forgotten us! Best of British all hopefully the waiting is over soon x

Poisonwoodlife · 21/01/2015 15:52

It was me wondering if this is the influence of the new Head at KGS, from Aylesbury Grammar a state boy's grammar, so not much experience of overseas candidates and more experience of a first past the post system. I would imagine state Grammar School Heads find the mandatory and economic restrictions they face on admissions arrangement frustrating but it must make jumping from that culture a little more difficult. Sarah Fletcher came from a very different background and she changed an existing culture. I just hope that it doesn't mean a change in ethos since that popularity as "ecole de jour" mentioned by Needmore rested on reports of happy pupils and encouraging teachers focused on individual potential as opposed to it being focused on results and rising up league tables, far too much of that around.

However agree with Dino that harder papers don't necessarily equate to harder to get in, that depends on demand, and actually 700 sitting at KGS, and 400 at LEH isn't an increase on ten years ago, although there would have been a dip in numbers a couple of years ago when an unusually small cohort came out.

Also what is "harder" in Maths? Most schools try to have questions that apply familiar questions in unfamiliar ways to test logic and reasoning skills (especially the more selective ones who want to distinguish the bright from the tutored) as well as straightforward questions, some pupils will find the former easier but may not be good at being accurate at the latter, some the other way around. And in English there is even more variation between the different skills that a pupil can display.

By the way whoever said that LEH take a low proportion of state school applicants were being a bit unfair, the Prep skews it but if you take the non Prep intake about half will be from state primaries / overseas. However it is very focused on ability and talent, hence the general paper and focus on interviews, and can be most selective from a very wide catchment (larger than pretty much any of the schools, Ealing to Ascot, Cobham to Windsor) so individual primaries won't see many get in, so it is just a very high bar.

Basically I think it is impossible to speculate on what these schools are looking at /for without talking to the Heads or failing that seeing the papers, and who turns up in the schools afterwards. Having done all that I can only say that the Chinese whispers in playgrounds often don't help. I hope as is usual that less selective schools like St Catherine's and Surbiton ride to the rescue of the disappointed, the vast majority of parents of pupils at both schools I know are very happy with both.

Poisonwoodlife · 21/01/2015 15:54

But holding everyone's hands because this process is absolutely awful....

Beingfrank · 21/01/2015 15:55

I guess the big difference at KGS are the numbers sitting. In ds1s day it was probably nearer 450/500 so if they interviewed 300 then it was a much bigger proportion and would have cut much further into the normal distribution bulge. Interestingly, in my dd's year (now upper sixth) the boys who went were the ones who didn't get Hampton - and to my knowledge two of them left after GCSE. I think that the school it became was not the one they joined, iykwim.

amidaiwish · 21/01/2015 16:03

LEH yr7 is typically 1/3 state ( I suppose then it is 1/3 juniors and 1/3 other preps)
KGS is 2/3 state
Will be interesting to see if that changes.

Beingfrank · 21/01/2015 16:06

Cross post with Poisonwoodlife!

You are very knowledgable, Poisonwood, so I don't like to disagree (Grin) but:

  • There was definitely not anywhere near 700 sitting KGS 4 years ago
  • there are very few state school pupils in dd's year at LEH (less than 10% in her form and I don't think the others were too different).
  • sadly neither St Catherine's nor Surbiton will be coming to rescue disappointed boys!
Afrodizziac · 21/01/2015 16:07

Dinocroc, I got the call too, about an hour ago! Quite surprised, tbh, as DD sounded very noncommittal after the papers.

Poisonwoodlife · 21/01/2015 16:08

BeingFrank Are you sure? DD2s year would have been the year before your DD and there were 700 applying to KGS, 400 at LEH, 500 at Surbiton, 400 at St George's (incidentally Castles, another possibility, bus from Fullwell, very similar ethos to KGS but inclusively Catholic and rolling acres), frightened the wits out of me. Agree the cohort was more mixed than Hampton but knew girls who chose it over LEH, and didn't Sarah Fletcher start a policy of suggesting to some sixth formers who were not trying, that they should not try elsewhere?

Dinocroc · 21/01/2015 16:12

I find the new KGS Head really approachable and sensible and feel very comfortable with him and the school as a whole. I think it's hard to judge the difficulty of a paper based on feedback from children who will remember the hard questions and forget all the ones they could do!

My personal experience based on going through this twice now is that you cannot know as poison (!) says what the schools are looking for. Also ......Being at a primary 'requiring intervention' for not stretching the able didn't matter. Having no personal or family experience of private schooling didn't matter . The school not sending a glowing prep school type Head report didn't matter. Playing no instruments at all and sport at a very casual level didn't matter. Working full time and having no time to 'chat ' to other mums about schools didn't matter

I now genuinely think they are looking for the bright and untutored children who will fit well in their school. The things that helped me was getting info from the many wise people in threads like this. Applying to a wide range of private and state schools to keep options open. We didn't tutor but did buy Bond verbal reasoning books so they knew what verbal reasoning was. Playing the whole thing down so kids are relaxed about it. Not letting children ( or yourself) get attached to any particular school.

Please don't roast me! The aim is to help and reassure the unsure that it really is worth a try if its something you want xx

Poisonwoodlife · 21/01/2015 16:14

Being Frank If I am more specific it will out DDs but not my experience. LEH forms are geographic/ friend requests, so I think you can get forms with varying proportions, depending on feeder Preps etc. My experience is of much higher proportions.

Poisonwoodlife · 21/01/2015 16:15

Plus I asked the question when we were looking round and that was the answer I got, in contrast to SPGS who were almost proud they had so few.

SonorousBip · 21/01/2015 16:16

I've done this process twice, once with a boy and once with a girl. Its noticeable (to me) how much easier it is with a girl. Admittedly I have a slight difference - not much, but a bit - in ability levels and stronger subjects and I'm also trying to discount all my higher anxiety levels the first time round, but I really feel for parents' of boys because it feels like in this area we are effectively a school or two down. If I were a private equity investor, I'd be buying up and opening a good, mid-range boy's school. I think this is what Radnor House was intending to do, but I understand the entry numbers are pretty small because of siblings preference (?) and now a lower school coming on stream.

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