Why has DS not been given extra time??

[Jodee]

Reposting from SN Education
DS has almost come to the end of the first term in Year 10 and (finally) this week I received his SEN Progress Tracker, where his "Proposed Access Arrangements" going forward is to use a Word Processor. I had chased this up at the beginning of term as he was assessed at the end of Year 9. (He was on School Action Plus before the changes).

I had been expecting DS to be given 25% extra time; he told me that when he had a History assessment recently, the other children on his table had extra time but he didn't, and as expected he didn't finish the assessment. He also didn't finish an RE assessment today.

I spoke to the SENCO today for an explanation of the Tracker form as it's the first one I've seen, instead of the IEP. I was told no extra time for DS, he can use a word processor - if he wants to!

His standardised scores are 76 for non verbal, 86 for verbal, 83 for quantative. (Below average is said to be below 85).

I have not been informed by anyone that his writing is so illegible that he requires a word processor (which we would have to provide) whereas he has difficulties processing information, needs instructions repeated and understanding checked (had speech therapy at a younger age).

As he has at least one score of 84 or less (I have been reading the new AA Regs for 2014-15), surely this qualifies DS to have the extra time? I want to go back to the SENCO and also the person who carried out the assessment with an informed argument.

thank you.

Given the recent changes in allowance of ET, what exactly can be done to help DS perform at his best? Would an Ed Psych report be useless unless he clearly comes below the cut off for processing speed (which he doesn't according to the LUCID test the school did)? Worried about spending a lot of money on a private assessment that will only reaffirm his specific learning disability but that he doesn't quite fall below the necessary criteria.

ds' Ed Psych was professional enough to say we'd probably be wasting money if we asked her to reassess. According to ds, practice questions to time are important so you get used to not have the time to check and reread at the end, learn to get going quicker and allow less time to think things through. At least with a laptop there is still the option to edit what has been written later on.

The need has to be established in exam situations as well, so for example changing colour pens/font when normal time is up to look a what the additional time has been used for and the difference it makes to the grade. Increasingly ds felt the extra time wasn't active writing time it was more of a review/edit as he got used to working to the set time constraints. However if your dc uses it for planning at the start the issue might be different. Bear in mind that plenty of NT students may not finish papers within the time anyway.

TooHasty: 'Any idioy can get the right answers if they have all the time in the world to think about it'

That is so offensive that I don't even know where to begin (or even if I should). I have had some truly wonderful students who, given all the time in the world, would only just scrape a G.

I have had some truly wonderful students who, given all the time in the world, would only just scrape a G.
I am sure they were truly wonderful people, but not by the wildest stretch truly wonderful students.

We clearly have very different ideas on that. Wonderful students in terms of wanting to learn, enjoying learning, keen to succeed and pushing themselves to their maximum.

Duchess - you have no need to apologise. The derailment was instigated by an entirely different engine who clearly has an entirely personal agenda.

I think it's glaringly obvious that there is only one 'idiot' on this thread.

toohasty you completely miss the point, and clearly didn't have the attention span to read my link; yes, bright dyslexics can clean up on tests of verbal and non verbal reasoning, time pressures are irrelevant because they do not require working memory and processing skills. They are tests of ability, not attainment or memory which is precisely why they are used by Ed Psychs as tests of ability, and all the most selective indies as tests of potential. You really do not get it do you?

Hasty people with Dyslexia do not automatically get extra time. If they can show their processing speed is such that they need extra time to understand and answer the questions they do.
There are a lot of hoops to jump through.

There is a lot of controversy over whether Dyslexia exists - I don't think there is any such controversy over whether processing difficulties exist.

Toohasty I have a Yr10 DS who thankfully has just qualified for extra time due to slow processing speed. He will also use a laptop. His verbal IQ is 139 (top 99.5%) - Oxbridge level. The IQ test is a verbally administered intelligence test, rather than a written one. With an IQ of this level, you might be predicting a clean sweep of A* grades. It is therefore very distressing to see him struggling and underachieving. Like previous posters, if you ask him how evaporation works, you will get a high level text book verbal answer but he will struggle with the process of getting it down on paper (KS2 Level 3 writing). He won't qualify for a scribe but the extra time will hopefully go some way to levelling the playing field. He is going to have to spend far more time reading questions, planning his answers, checking for punctuation, spelling mistakes, silly errors, making sure it makes sense. With the exception of English Language (SPaG), his problems don't relate to subject knowledge, ability to analyse, etc, and therefore, as far as possible, they should not be allowed to prevent from having the chance to show off his high ability and knowledge and reach his potential.

Of course dyslexia exists. As does dyspraxia. The controversy as you choose to term it is hardly going to be reduced by the DfE's attempt to rebadge them as (a) being unintelligent and (b) being merely bad at writing which is what the current regime seem determined to do.

It might help too hasty if I put this in terms they can relate to, rather than wrap it up in what they appear to find difficult concepts......

I wonder toohasty what happens when you are confronted with a VR or NVR question? As a Dyslexic I look at it and I either get it or I don't, mostly I get it, and I have always typically scored in the top 2%. Time isn't an issue.

When confronted with an academic exam, and I have two Master's degrees so I have done a lot of them, I am faced with a long wordy or number filled question . I read slowly, and sometimes what I read gets lost somewhere between the page and the bit of my brain that does the thinking, so I have to read it several times to make sure I fully understand it. Then when the thinking bit of my brain gets going then it goes into overdrive generating ideas. I may need to retrieve some knowledge but that can be a bit hit and miss, although I have developed some good coping strategies for memorising and retrieving information. Then I need to put all those ideas and knowledge into some sort of order and form that would make sense to the reader. It is not that I don't know the answer / can't generate innovative analysis and ideas. That is no problem, so VR and NVR questions are no problem. It is the process between my brain and the paper that is slow, not my brain.

That is why GCHQ employ people like me rt.com/uk/189580-gchq-dyslexic-spies-recruited/

"While many dyslexic individuals have difficulty reading, writing and comprehending words, they often have a high aptitude for isolating facts from complex patterns and events. Approximately 10 percent of citizens throughout the UK suffer from dyslexia, while 5 percent of UK children are dyspraxic – a condition that affects co-ordination.

Dyslexics’ aptitude for code-breaking is highlighted by the historical case of Alan Turing. A dyslexic cryptanalyst and mathematician who worked for the British government during the Second World War, Turing succeeded in breaking the Nazi’s clandestine Enigma code. While the importance of his work remained unacknowledged for decades, GCHQ has learned from Turing, and regularly recruits dyslexic and dyspraxic staff to work against cybercriminals, foreign spies and terrorists.

Matt, a 35-year old chairman of GCHQ’s dyslexic and dyspraxic support community, told the Sunday Times that people who possess neuro diversity generally demonstrate a “spiky-skills profile”. This means that “certain skill areas will be below par and others may be well above,” he added.

“My reading might be slower than some individuals and maybe my spelling is appalling, and my handwriting definitely is... but if you look at the positive side, my 3D spacial-perception awareness and creativity is in the top 1 percent of my peer group.”"

It is also why Dyslexics are over represented amongst CEOs and in surprising fields eg amongst academic historians.

So by your logic, Alan Turing wasn't very intelligent?

I do hope you can understand this because I hate to think how your current ignorance manifests itself in terms of your attitude to the 10% of intelligent people who are dyslexic.....

I'm not sure everyone on this thread has the processing abilities needed to understand all of this, regardless of the extra time we give them.

And I'm not talking about dyslexics.

This is an interesting article about extra time in exams [http://www.diverse-learners.co.uk/gcses-extra-time-a-mixed-blessing]].
I agree that it is useful for many students but hope that the changes mean that the students who really need it still receive it.
However recent changes in exams meant that last year some pupils had 3 GCSE exams in one day and it was very difficult to manage that for students who needed extra time. These pupils still need a break between exams (including for lunch) and fitting this in with the extra time can be tricky.

Need to convert the link www.diverse-learners.co.uk/gcses-extra-time-a-mixed-blessing.

If you are an employer and presented with 2 candidates with identical sets of results, would you want the 'slow processor' who takes 25% longer to do the same thing as the 'normal' processor.
The exam results should not disguise the fact these 2 candidates are not 'equal'.

I have said upthread that readers and scribes should be allowed to anyone who feels they need one, but not extra time.

I'm struggling to understand all this too, so maybe you can just dismiss me as having processing problems?

I'm coming from this as the parent of dc who are bright but have these learning difficulties, one of them being severely affected. And yet, and yet, I'm still not convinced that extra time is the right solution.

It can be heartbreaking watching how much harder it is for them, but I'm convinced they have to do their best to learn to compensate and overcome their weaknesses. Extra time isn't a solution - as the problem persists - instead it simply attempts to conceal it.

Almost all professional jobs - the ones that need those As & A*s - will involve a good level of written communication. You can't say to your boss 'Oh, I'm sorry, I going to need 25% more time to write you that report".

The hardest thing is trying to work out what I should do. Whilst I don't agree with the use of extra time, I don't want to disadvantage my dc - and if other children with possibly milder difficulties are getting extra time - how could I deny them it?

I have said upthread that readers and scribes should be allowed to anyone who feels they need one, but not extra time.

Why would you want to help those who struggle to read or write but not those that struggle to process written information? Why do you think one is deserving and not the other? You gave scenario of two candidates for a job, a slow processing person and a NT one. Why do you think the fact that one person can not read or write as well as the other should be "disguised" by them having gained the same exam results but one had someone to read and write for them?

What you say makes no sense whatsoever and shows that you struggle to understand the issues.

"If you are an employer and presented with 2 candidates with identical sets of results, would you want the 'slow processor' who takes 25% longer to do the same thing as the 'normal' processor.
The exam results should not disguise the fact these 2 candidates are not 'equal'."

It would depend on the job. Divergent thinking, out of the box thinking, creative thinking might well trump "faster processing". Severely dyslexic AA Gill is a very successful writer and journalist. Dyslexic Richard Branson is a very successful entrepreneur. It would be a fool who wouldn't employ these guys because they can't spell.

In an interview situation you wouldn't know who had had access arrangements, just as examiners won't. Equal opportunities , equality and diversity, DDA etc

Toohasty - having someone who takes longer but gets it right is far better than someone who is just fast. Most jobs don't require very fast processing, and especially being very fast at taking in written information and providing a quick written response.

The tests nowadays are pretty comprehensive, and quite tough. However other than for housekeeping I think time limits in exams are not that good a way of testing people, all they do is induce extra stress - which isn't a crucial aspect of most jobs (except maybe air traffic control).

I have at least one child with Dyslexia, but I would still argue that in the future we may have a much better way of categorising a wide range of difficulties that people experience with learning/recall and other SN.

There are people who positively discriminate for dyslexics, and people with ASD. To discriminate against my DD with slow processing would be a mistake, as she is extremely hard working and dedicated - to an extent that someone with similar grades but no difficulties, might not have.

toohasty You have once again completely failed to take my points on board. You never have two identical individuals bar one having slower processing. You have individuals in all their diversity, with strengths and weaknesses.... And in a 25 year career in senior management I can assure you I never had a situation where I had to regurgitate great chunks of memorised knowledge along with my thinking in the space of two or three hours that in any way replicated the experience of a school, or uni exam. That is why all those CEOs and world changing Scientists who flunked school go on to succeed. I have had a hand written note from Richard Branson, and as with many other hand written notes from Board Members of companies I have worked with, it bought out the Grammar School snob in me, and I am Dyslexic

Guinivere I am dyslexic as well, so I know that my daughters will have coping strategies that enable them to succeed in the real world. I have bought them up to appreciate that they have to work hard to overcome their weaknesses, it is a weakness, not an excuse. However when it comes to them having to in one case produce reams of technical biological gobbldegook and in the other essays covering knowledge of long texts and sources in the space of two or three hours, then yes extra time is of benefit to them. I didn't have extra time and the result was that I never quite realised my potential in terms of exam results. It didn't matter then, you could still get to a good uni, and on a good graduate training scheme with a grade lower than perhaps you could have got but now they need the A*s and Firsts they are capable of.

"The exam results should not disguise the fact these 2 candidates are not 'equal'."

Another poster on another thread made an interesting point regarding students who got 3 A*s in their A Levels....

There were the ones who had worked really really hard to achieve them.
There were the ones who had achieved them with ease.
There were the ones who had achieved them with ease and were widely read and dedicated to the subject.

So... no candidates will be equal anyway.

you wouldn't know who had had access arrangements, just as examiners won't Actually LIZS that isn't quite true. Examiners are informed if a scribe has been used and if a word processor is used and there has to be a cover sheet filled in by the centre to confirm this has been approved by the exam board. There are set procedures to follow when marking such papers. The information that is confidential is the reason why this arrangement has been granted for a particular candidate.

Toohasty - having someone who takes longer but gets it right is far better than someone who is just fast.

but that isn't the choice.Both candidates have identical grades, one is slow, one is fast.I want the faster candidate who is going to be more productive all things being equal.The exam results are misleading me by concealing that one candidate takes 25% longer.