Do class sizes really matter?

[wonderingstar01]

DD is desperately unhappy at her independent school so our decision is whether to let her go to the local Academy with her friends, which has similar academic results to the local independents and has an Outstanding Ofsted rating. She's already been offered a place starting immediately.

My only reason for resisting the move is the 30+ kids in each class, albeit that every subject is set by ability. The knock-on effect is they have lots (and I mean lots) of homework as they can't get through the content in class. She will be home by 4pm rather than 6.15pm so it could be argued she has the time to do it.

I read articles which shout about the benefits of small class sizes in independent schools but equally read well-argued articles that it's all about the child and not whether they're in a class of 15 or 150.

Does anyone have any proven examples of either? Thank you.

I teach in a school with tiny class sizes. There are distinct advantages for much weaker pupils. I think, for the more able, bigger classes are no problem and can be an advantage. If they are set, and the work is at an appropriate level, of far greater importance is the quality of the teacher. Crap ones don't survive big classes in an outstanding school so, I suspect, she will have a very good education. With savings on private schooling, you could always supplement with tuition / web based support.

our children are in a public school with v small classes
BUT our local secondary is excellent and they have top loaded class sizes.
it works, the children with more needs get more attention the people with more ability get on with their work.
ie the set 1 english have 34 in a class the set 5 english have 12

ooh and an unhappy child isn't going to learn well in any environment.

I wouldn't keep my DD in a school where she was desperately unhappy. And you are paying for that privilege! She is unlikely to learn well if she is miserable.

Have to say though that I think smaller class sizes are preferable. Particularly for weaker students. At my DD's school, when doing GCSEs, the top sets had 20 ish pupils, and the bottom 10.

How old is your DD?

OP I'm not sure you get less prep because the class in small. My DS since yr 9 has frequently been in classes of 7-8 but he's consistently had a least two hours of preps 6 days a week since yr 9.
He thinks that for some subjects bigger classes (18-20) are better because the subject requires others to bounce ideas off, but for a MFL he believes the smaller the better.
I agree with Leeds2 I wouldn't pay to keep her in a school where she's "desperately unhappy" unless she's due to move say next yr and is sitting entrance exams in the early summer in which case moving her could be rash.

Imagine the marking load with classes of 34 secondary pupils producing essays ....

I agree although my daughter is happy at private ....I do think if your daughter is unhappy you should move her. The school does not fulfill her needs. Simple as that.

IMVHO small class sizes are preferable.

However, I would still move a desperately unhappy child. What's the problem OP?

The disadvantage of smaller schools and smaller class sizes is that the number of potential friends could be smaller. It may be that your dd would be more likely to find a group of friends that she fits into in a larger school.
IMO the smaller class size is only an issue for mixed ability teaching. In large mixed ability classes it is harder to provide appropriate work for different ability pupils. Given that the pupils are set according to ability in all subjects, your dd should be set work that is at the right level for her ability.

Research on class size consistently shows that it only really makes a difference when classes are smaller than 15. It also depends on whether the teacher adapts their approach to take advantage of the smaller number of children. So a school with class sizes of 10 to 15 kids, where the teachers take a very dialogic approach, is likely to get the absolute most out of those kids. A school with class sizes of 15 to 25, where the teacher approaches lessons in much the same way as if she had 35 pupils, is unlikely to be conferring any additional advantage.

Happy children in large classes learn. Unhappy children in small classes do not.

I thought the whole attachment to small class sizes thing was something that isn't born out by the evidence.

John Hattie on the R4 educators programme was interesting about this. Said it was something like the 115th most influential factor out of 130. i.e. almost negligible. Here's his list
visible-learning.org/hattie-ranking-influences-effect-sizes-learning-achievement/

I think it's one of those issues on which we all suffer cognitive dissonance. I find it really hard to believe that my children wouldn't learn better with half the class removed (especially if it were the disruptive and/or less able half). And yet all the evidence points to the contrary.

In the situation where you're paying or an unhappy child to get similar results to that which she could achieved more happily for free, then I think it's a no brainer. Especially if she frees up lots of hours by not having to travel.

The problem in her own words is she was made to go to the private school when all her friends went to the Academy and she feels she's had to become someone else just to fit in. She wants a fresh start although going back to her old friends isn't' her preference, it's to go somewhere completely new and then she can be herself. That isn't an option as that would involve boarding and that's not something I'm comfortable with plus I believe it would only exacerbate the problems she's having now but there would be no escape from them.

She is quite bright but her performance is undoubtedly influenced by the quality of teaching. Some teachers in her current school don't even turn up for lessons and appear to be just along for the ride. The Academy teachers however appear to be more enthusiastic about their teaching role and have a much better sense of responsibility.

The Academy have pulled out all the stops to get her a place - as they were up to their limit - and feel she would be a real asset to them. She enjoys being put in a position of responsibility and at the Academy, although they have 3 times more students, things such as being a prefect would certainly be within her reach. The private school is dominated by the sporty and those whose parents contribute most financially or who brown-nose the headmaster. We don't fit into those categories so, although I haven't voiced my opinion to her, she's only ever going to be invisible. Her being bright doesn't differentiate her from anyone else because they all are.

By Secondary age class size much less of a factor. Research tends to suggest that small classes have their biggest impact in the first few years in school.

The school your DD is in is not the right school for her. I would move her. Where do you think she is most likely to acheive her full potential?

Move her.
Class sizes in most secondaries are capped at 30 (because that is the size the rooms are built for) and chances are there will be good setting and pastoral
so she'll find other things to moan about

I think Academically she would achieve fairly well regardless. They've just been given their MIDYS predictions and if she continues at the same rate of progress, she's predicted A*s in all the subjects that matter. Not sure how worthwhile those predictions are but at least it gives a sense of the ball-park she'd be in.

What troubles me most is what appears to be her fragile sense of self. For me, making sure she's resilient and self-assured will prove more important in life than a shed load of GCSEs. So I suppose what I am saying is that if the Academy environment causes her to achieve slightly less academically then it would be a good trade off if it means she becomes a more confident adult.

I think small class sizes are really helpful when children have special needs but otherwise are managable large as long as there are no kids behaving really badly.

At the ourstanding state school all the bottom ability groups will be taught with low ratios. There will also be some children who have one to one support.

I'd move her personally.

Look at both schools 'value added' on line. This will tell you how well they do with the students they have and whether the children attending each school achieve more or less then their expected level. Google 'school performance tables', type in your school and then look half way down the page.

But I agree, school is more then grades. Happiness and balance come first.

Class size is relatively unimportant (even if, all other things being equal, classes of around 20-24 seem to work best in co-ed schools) providing there is setting by ability. A class of 30+ with IQs ranging from 80 to 130+ is a recipe for leaving many DC unable to access the curriculum or disengaged through boredom.

"The Academy have pulled out all the stops to get her a place"

Unless she was top of the waiting list, this may be a breach of the Admissions Code, and you need to think about what that tells you about school managements.

Many private day schools often have hefty amounts of homework - have you checked both the policy on this (and what actually happens, ask a pupil?) and some have class sizes of 26+ (eg some London schools). So the countable differences you would be buying might be less than first appearances. OTOH, if you know the private school has unusually (for a secondary) over-involved parents who meddle with the running of the school, then you probably do know considerable detail about the school and you still have doubts.

Are there any other schools within reach?

Auntie. Luckily she attended a feeder primary school so they were able to give her a priority on that basis. They are trust-run but are accountable to the LA for admissions so wouldn't be able to circumvent the admissions process.

I think you do know that she should move, OP! A small class is of little benefit if teachers are only along for the ride, do not turn up or are sub standard. An outstanding teacher will teach a class of 30 perfectly well and they often teach 34 in my local grammar schools! Frankly, I would not pay for below par teaching, whatever the class size, and far too many people get hung up on this. It is the quality of teaching and quality of learning that matters.

I completely agree with you about children/parents who are invisible at independent schools. The ordinary ones are marginalised. Your child has to be super clever, super rich, super sporty or musical or you have to be super good at Schmoozing to get noticed. Preferably, you must be brilliant at everything!

If she's unhappy then I would move her.

I don't think the class sizes thing is relevant. DD was in classes of 30 right up to GCSE - at an academic private school. Her A level classes were well into double figures for the more popular subjects.

Not sure why you would pay for a school your DD doesn't enjoy and which has no academic benefits over the state school either.

Is the homework actually useful? One of the reasons we went private was the vast amounts of braindead makework that the local comp sets. They have more in year 7 than DD had year 11 and up.

And at the school which pulls out all the stops to get a student who will be an asset to them. How are they going to react if down the line she has, say, MH problems which means she's no longer such an asset? Isn't that exactly the attitude which you think is so awful in her current school, except that there she's not the asset child?