Straw poll- would you make a child try for grammar school if they didn't want to bug had siblings there?

[LePetitMarseillais]

Dd is adamant she wants to go to the comp instead.

Going round and round in circles deciding what to do.

The other way to approach the tutor issue is that it is important 'even at a comp' to go into secondary school with a firm grasp of Maths and English. It will do her no harm and will mean that she will be in higher sets as a result. That is how we are approaching it. Dd1 wants to go to the grammar school but not sure whether she will pass. If not then it will stand her in good stead wherever she goes. Also if 'all' her classmates get tutors then she might find herself slipping behind in yr 5 even if they don't all pass the 11+. I think though it also depends on the grammar school. If you are talking about a superselective then I don't think it is probably the right place for her if she doesn't want to pursue academic study. For a 20-30% grammar then there is more to be argued for getting her to reconsider.

You do know 3bunnies that it is perfectly possible to "pursue academic study" in a comprehensive school.

If a y5 has to receive tutoring in English and Maths you are on a rocky road. I can just about see its possible benefits for NVR and familiarisation with 11+ exam type questions, but English & Maths...

OP it's difficult. I had the same with one of my DS's. You have to hear them and give their views validation and respect their strength of character. Also really think which school is the best fit for your child. Despite what some people think children are getting wonderful, academically rigorous and inspiring education in our comps.

You the adult must be responsible for the decision though. It is too big for a child to handle.

Perhaps do the test and keep options open???

I agree with Tess73 - it depends on the alternative. I do wonder how you'll be able to get her to do the practice tests etc if she doesn't want to go in the first place, also presumably there's nothing to stop her deliberately messing up the test on the day if she really hates the idea?
Incidentally, my own DD is thinking of giving the choice to us as she can't decide which of our local comps she prefers. Trouble is - we're having trouble deciding as well!

My ds is at a secondary modern. He wants to be a barrister. I reckon perusing academic study is pretty important.....even if he isn't at grammar school.

If the Comp is good and she really wants to go there and she isn't grammar school material then you have your answer.
I believe that some children do know which type of school they prefer at this age and giving her the opportunity to attend which one she wants will no doubt help her settle easier than one she didn't want from the offset.
I think you have to listen to her views and talk about it in detail.
Split a sheet of A4 paper with pros and cons of each school, its the only way.

But is it a comp as in comprehensive? Surely if there's a grammar nearby then it is (whatever it might be called) a secondary modern.

I am very happy for my children to attend an all-ability comprehensive. I'm less happy for them to attend a school which has the top 25% of ability removed.

Hence me not being pro a selective system. However, were I to live in a selective area I'd strongly prefer the grammar to the secondary modern.

(I live in a nominally unselective area where the private system, the outlying grammars, the faith schools and the state schools with musical aptitude etc take over well half of the children that we know).

Sorry you have misunderstood my post - it is perfectly possible for a child to persue academic study in a comprehensive or in a secondary modern, however in this situation the OP describes her dc as not being particularly motivated to study so I was highlighting that if her dc is not wanting to persue academic study then probably a super selective (if it is a super selective) would not be a happy place for such a child.

Tutoring for Maths and English is common around here as the 11+ tests maths for example up to the end of the yr 6 curriculum (or so I am told) but is taken at the beginning of yr 6. A child in a standard primary will not have covered the whole curriculum. At private schools they might cover it during lesson time. Tutoring levels the playing field slightly.

I'm really glad that there is one other poster on the thread (Blu) who is impressed by the pig.
I think a school with a pig sounds amazing.
Seriously, if the SMT have the bandwidth to keep a pig alive and the imagination - and facilities - to incorporate something like that at secondary level.... But I am a wannabe hippy.

DD wanted to take the test for the girls' SS grammar at the time, but after passing decided she would rather go to the local (perfectly good) comprehensive with her friends. After some deliberation we decided to put her down for the grammar anyway and she has been happy with that.

DS did not want to go the the boys' SS grammar but agreed to do the test anyway. He is now reconsidering and is no longer sure. We are waiting for the results.

I think that at 10-11 they are too young to make this decision by themselves and in the end it is up to the parent to judge where is likely to suit them best in the long run. I don't think it should be based on a 10 yr old's friendship groups at one point in time.

We didn't tutor. In both cases the children worked through some practice tests in the 2-3 weeks before.

ds didn't want to go to grammar school.
There were lots if reasons, having to prepare was one of them, boys only school another and so on.
As we talked to him and unpicked his reasons, I realised that they were mostly due to inexperience. For example, he dreaded the all boys environment, because the boys in his class were badly behaved and didn't get any work done. He couldn't imagine a class full of well behaved, motivated boys.

First visit, mostly in the beautiful old wooden hall. He hated it, old, like a church, stuffy.
Second visit, new theatre block, awesome drumkit, met a very nice teacher who he instantly warmed to.

So he was still against, but there was a chink of light.
I told him we would do the prep, take the test and see what happened. All we asked was that he did his best.
He passed. We put grammar on the form, and promised him if he hated it, we would move him at the end of year 7. He enjoyed induction day, but right up until 1st september he was adamant that grammar was OUR choice, and he would be leaving at end of year 7.

We made the choice based on the school. We felt that he would love it once he was there, that the atmosphere really suited him and that his objections came from being too young to understand some of that. But we took his objections seriously, and promised him if he gave it a go we would let him leave.

The preparation we did has been really good for his school work all round, and even if he hadn't passed, it was good for him
He started 3 weeks ago and is loving every minute of it.

So, I would say, YOU choose the school that will suit dd, whichever school. Listen to her opinion, but YOU make the choice.

Are you living in a place where things are very segregated?

Is the comp really "comprehensive" or is it very clearly "people who didn't make it into the grammar"?

If it's the latter then I'd try very hard to get my child to go to grammar school if they could.

Oh - we are not a grammar area, our local choices weren't great, the grammar is over the county boundary.

Yes, I agree with steppemum. DS had a lot of misconceptions about the grammar school which we are gradually unpicking. They are not really rational, well informed decision makers at this age - however good they are at non-verbal reasoning tests!

The test is free and she is entitled to take it. So, I think I would encourage her to at least sit it.

Ten year olds do tend to change their minds. Also a year is a long time in their lives and they change and mature quickly.

That said in our area, the grammar school has about a 1000 kids vying for 120 places. So in our area, it is unusual for a child to come in cold and score highly enough to be offered a place. (I am sure it must happen from time to time, but I don't think it is usual.) I encouraged our daughter to take the local grammar school test. We bought some Bond tests at WHSmith and she started preparing about 2 weeks in advance. I think this was inadequate compared to the competition, but her life is busy doing other things that I think are more valuable to her in the long run, sport, music, family, friends.

Ultimately, you are the parent and the choice is down to you.

I would encourage mine to take the test. They can change their mind at the drop of a hat. Personally and it's just my opinion, I think they're too young to make a balanced decsion about their future education and what will suit their personality. As a parent it's up to us to guide them.

Break the decision into two chunks - first is taking the test and second is choosing the school she goes to ultimately.

I will say the extra tutoring will happen with or without grammar school; will put her in good stead in the comp anyway.

If she passes then you will decide which of the schools, comp or grammar she goes to.

Right just skim read,will read more later.

Comp def not a secondary modern.Kids go from all over to the grammar so very few if any from each primary.

Further worries are dd being in bottom sets at grammar( due to work ethic)which could have an impact on confidence. Dd failing 11+ because of lack of effort and the confidence set back that could have,no boys,being surrounded by v studious girls when she isn't BUT on the other hand dd getting away with minimal effort at comp due to not having to work hard (although I can't say for sure that would be allowed to happen),in years to come thinking we had lower expectations for her,the years before they set(have heard they have been a tad rocky at this particular school in previous years although the new head is kicking butt as regards expectations so hopefully a worry over nothing).......

Thoughts?

Personally if you are not sure at this point then I'd say at least give the 11+ a go. I would have thought that if the main issue is lack of work then failing is more likely to give her effort levels a boost rather than dent her confidence. Different if she is likely to work like mad and still fail.

You can always change your mind.

I went to Grammar school because I was a borderline pass at 11+ and had 2 sisters there. I probably should have gone to to a comp (not necessarily the local one though). I was not very engaged there and did not do very well. I always thought it was my failing (my parents even had me see an educational psychologist) but after a long chat with my sister, realised that actually the school did not support me at all. In fact at my first parents' evening, the headmistress said "she's not like the other two, is she?".

In light of that, would I send a second or third child just because the others went there? Probably not.

If I had entered any of my dc for the 11+ without them being motivated to do their best then they would have answered as many incorrectly as they could!

Both ds were tutored, ds1 is at the most sort after school in our area, ds2 missed the pass mark (was diagnosed dyslexic yr7). Both have benefited hugely from the extra work that they put in.

Dd will be tutored soon.

I guess what I am rambling is that I would encourage tutoring/ preperation even if you decide not to enter her as she will benefit from that whichever school she goes to.

As it is a super selective I would probably consider tutoring if she will go and get her to sit the test so that she keeps her options open in case she changes her mind but I don't think that I would push her to go if she still doesn't want to. She will still have loads of opportunities at a comp and she can be the person she wants to be. Going to a Grammar school won't make her studious. I went to one and it was fairly miserable for those who struggled.

I just wanted to reiterate, do you think the school will suit her? Looking at the grammar school, the atmosphere, the kids who go there, the things they have on offer, the fun stuff (are they things she would find fun) the sport/music/drama etc or lack of it

Do you think your dd would fit well into this school? If not visit the comp, is this school a better fit for her?

I think finding the school which suits your child will lead to the best result in the end. I can see that a grammar may help her step up and get more interested in doing well, or it may turn her off entirely. Depends on the school and your dd.

But as others have said, the tutoring won't hurt, it will help in whatever school she goes to.

My brother was the same, parents made him take the test. As soon as he got the place he was all for going. Think he was probably worried he wouldn't pass.