Do universities positively discriminate in favour of state school pupils?

[Daltec]

A friend told me that she will keep her children in the state system throughout their education because then they will have an advantage when it comes to university applications. She said that a child educated in the state system is looked upon more favourably than one who attended private school as a state student with straight As would be seen as being brighter than a privately educated student with the equivalent results. The reason for this is that the state student would not have been spoon fed. I'm not sure that I agree with this, as everything I've ever read in the newspapers seems to suggest that those educated in the private sector have a distinct advantage when it comes to applying to university.

If what she says is true, would I put my state educated child at a disadvantage if I were to send her to an independent school for her A levels?

There is some contextualisation of exams results and offers, yes.

But it's not as simple as "state vs private". It's usually based on the school's history of results and getting children into selective universities. It is possible, perhaps even probably, that if you attend a school in special measures where no-one goes to university you will get a lower offer (and you might get a guaranteed interview at universities which interview). However, you are still at a school in special measures, and you have still got to make that offer, and it will probably only be at most one grade lower.

Independently educated children are still massively over-represented in universities. If you look at the Posh University League

Whoops, URL:

www.studentbeans.com/mag/en/campus/posh-university-league-which-uni-s-the-poshest

you will see that the proportion of independently educated students is above the average level in the population for about the top 30 universities.

If you send your kids to a very poor state school with a low percentage of kids getting 5 A*-C grades then they MAY make an offer one or two grades below their norm, but nice leafy comp (or grammar - don't forget these are state too), not a chance and she is addled in her thinking.

Very addled thinking!
Universities want students who will work hard and get a first - wherever they come from.

The spoonfed-in-the-independent sector thing is a MN myth - I have worked in many schools, and there is a vast amount of spoonfeeding in the state sector by schools desperate to prove themselves in the league table - I have seen blatant cheating controlled assessments, even in one case from a HT .

OP, your friend is confused.

Some universites (though not all by any means) are unhappy with their intake of students.

So they make contextualised offers ie lower offers to certain applicants. Simply attending any state school won't get you a contextualised offer.

There is a flagging system. And attending certain schools is a flag. It's accepted that applicants from those schools will have had a difficult journey.

And I don't know many academics who consider private schools to have spoon fed their pupils.

Quite the opposite, they accept that certain schools offer a superlative education.

The fact that certain state schools offer something far worse, is the purpose of the contextualised offers. A recognition of that fact.

That said, people should knwo that contextualised offers are rarely really low!

Thanks so much for all your responses. My daughter's comprehensive school is 'outstanding' (and noted for 'spoonfeeding' its pupils!) and I would not be looking at sending her to a school in special measures. So, for us, it wouldn't make any difference to her university application if she stays in the state sector (comprehensive or grammar) or moves to the private one. This has really cleared things up for me!

Some universities have a "Wider opportunities programme" or similar which aims to encourage pupils who wouldn't normally consider university to apply for a place. This could be what your friend is thinking about but there's more to it than that. It's more complicated than just the school attended: it could also include your postcode, whether (or not) your parents went to university as well as the school attended.
Some pupils attending independent schools may be from low-income households and have a bursary whereas many state school pupils may have well educated and comfortably well off parents so it's not just the school attended that's the main factor.
I would choose the sixth form that best meets your child's needs and has good provision in the subjects they want to study. Look at the A level results in the subjects your child is interested in and the entry requirements. Also look at the final destinations of the sixth formers i.e. which universities attended and subjects studied.

Here is OXFORD UNI's info on contextual data. Leafy comps don't make it unfortunately.

Several top unis are involved in this scheme www.realisingopportunities.ac.uk so it's not just Oxbridge.

i went to Durham from a state school. (a very good one)
my offer was lower than most of my intake, because i think i was coming from a state school. a friend who was coming from an inner city sheffield comp had an even lower offer than mine. i think it's right and that it's fair. most people on my course i had 3, 4, 5 As. i didn't. it became very apparent i was as good as them very early on. The guy from sheffield was one of 3 to get a 1st. all 3 who got a 1st were from state schools. That was 20 odd years ago, things may have changed but i doubt it.

Outside contextual offers, it is possible that in the situation where there are equally placed private school and state school candidates (scored by all the usual metrics including interview if applicable) there is a bias towards the state school pupil. Admissions people are only human and will be conscious of negative publicity regarding private versus state school intake.

Universities will make lower offers to state school students in many cases. This is because research shows that state school students outperform Indy school students at degree level.

As an aside I hate the terms spoon-feeding and "teaching-to-the-test". It's just so symptomatic of a school system where educators and teenagers just can't bloody win! Students fail and their teachers must be crap or the kids are lazy delinquents who can only uze txt spk, students do well and their teachers must be spoon-feeding them, cheating or the exams must be getting easier. Boils my piss!

What do people mean when they say spoon-feeding? Usually this seems to refer to teaching kids well and making them aware of the criteria that they are actually going to be measured against rather than teaching them some stuff (that may or may not be examined) then crossing our fingers and hoping for the best.

^should have said they outperform Indy students with the same A Level and GCSE grades.

The state vs inde boundary is not a clear one. I am constantly astonished that some parents continue to shell out for a second-rate education at a local inde with poor GCSE results, and poor teaching, when there are outstanding state alternatives nearby which are not oversubscribed. Presumably the motivation is to keep little Jonny away from the riffraff.

There are also some superselective state grammars with exceptional results and great record of sixth formers going on to top, posh unis. These schools are in many ways comparable with a top, superselective inde and are regarded as such.

Poltergoose - very interesting links, thank you.

There is no systematic biase.
There are admissions tutors who are biased. One once said to me, " If a state school pupil has AAA I know they are bright, from "certain" private schools I'm not sure".

However my advice is to send to the best school for your DC. Your local Comp sounds pretty good. (Oh and I know people who believe in the state school biase, so transfer their DC to a state sixth for.)

Oh there will always be personal bias. But since that might go for or against a particular applicant, it's not worth making decisions about which sector to choose.

The reality is that most offers are made based on GCSE results, AS results, predicted grades, aptitude tests, personal statements and in a very few universities - interview.

And just as am aside the research doesnt show that state schooled students outperform private school students.

It shows that at the least selective universities which require the lowest grades, state schooled students do better.

As the universities become more selective the gap decreases. At the most selective universities there is negligible difference .

There is certainly nothing in the research that would affect the decision making process.

Amongst DDs' peers I am quite sure what gets you to a good university is your personal qualities and achievements. There are surprises but it is not between who gets where from state and private, it is that some pupils, from state and private, you would never have expected to up to say the age of 14 (some 18 ) get to top universities because of sheer hard work and a passion enthusiasm / motivation to study their subject. End of. That seems a lot more marked amongst DD2s peers, applying this year at a time when the top universities are chasing the best applicants, than it was in the very competitive year my DD applied. Very good applicants stand more chance of a place at a top university wherever they come from. Maybe your friend needs to start encouraging that in her DCs rather than focusing on trying to game the system.

From the Higher Education Funding Council for England:

"The report at a glance

72 per cent of White students who entered higher education with A-level grades of BBB gained a first or upper second class degree. This compares with 56 per cent for Asian students, and 53 per cent for Black students, entering with the same A-level grades.

Female students are more likely to achieve an upper second or higher than male students with the same prior educational attainment.

Students from disadvantaged areas tend to do less well in higher education than those with the same prior educational attainment from more advantaged areas.

State school students tend to do better in their degree studies than students with the same prior educational attainment from independent schools."

here

Figure 5 is the one you want to look at "Figure 5 shows, for all but those with the very highest A-level achievement, a clear separation in HE achievement between those who entered HE from an independent KS5 school and those entering from a state school."

"And just as am aside the research doesnt show that state schooled students outperform private school students."

Can you refer us to which section of the report you're looking at Word? I take it it's the same report?