Please can someone answer this simple question about state selective schools?

[Hakluyt]

If selection at 11 is such a good idea, why do wholly selective authorities not produce significantly better exam results than demographically similar wholly comprehensive authorities?

I am not "going on" about Haks choice. I asked a question regarding the number of grammar school places available. Hak responded by saying that in Kent, parents who made the same choice as she did regard 77% of children as collateral damage. As she doesn't possess mind reading abilities, I asked her if that's what she thought?

The system of selection clearly works in NI as I am sure it does in other LEAs. So the question should be what is different in the areas where selection produces better results and increased social mobility and those where it doesn't?

However given Hak's discounting of the figures where it does work and her attribution of "I'm alright Jsck" mentality to those who are in favour of a system that she believes benefits her DC I'm no longer sure what this thread is about.

LaVolcan - it is quite crude though because many LEAs are entire counties. And most counties have good bits and bad bits. The county I live in is regarded by some as wealthy (because there are some very posh/wealthy bits) and by others (including as it happens the EU) as grindingly poor - because there are bits like that too.

I'm still not convinced that you can securely group children according to perceived ability at 11 or that intellect is largely fixed in children.

Nobody here has said anything to convince me of it.

LEAs are entire counties
they may have the NAME of a county but they are NOT the entire county.
Hampshire LEA does not include Southampton or Portsmouth
Dorset does not include Bournemouth or Poole
Kent does not include Medway

Where did the Torygraph extract that data, as the only source without political spin is here
www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/index.html
and it does not have a "by LEA" button

"However given Hak's discounting of the figures where it does work "

I am not discounting the figures. However, the NI example you gave was a) from, I think 2006, b) did not go into any detail about the better GCSEs in selective schools, how they were measured, what subjects and so on and c) did not look at any other potential reasons for the difference except selection. I did not therefore think I could comment constructively without more data. Particularly as I know absolute nothing about the NI education system.

(a) I said many and I used Medway as a specific example just a few posts ago
(b) how would I know where the torygraph gets its data?

Rabbit
The source of data matters because many Newspaper reports on school exams : like the "results tables" that were spouted by the press this summer were based on self reported non moderated incomplete data

There are lies, damned lies and statistics

I'd like to know how much filtering the Torygraph does before publishing ....

The 'Entire counties' arguement doesn't really wash. Accepting that the Isle of Scilly are a special case - tell me which of these areas are poor:

1 Isles Of Scilly 81.00%
2 Kensington and Chelsea 80.20%
3 Sutton 77.00%
4 Bromley 73.90%
5 Kingston upon Thames 71.60%

146 Stoke-on-Trent 49.90%
147 Isle of Wight 48.70%
148 Portsmouth 47.60%
149 Blackpool 46.10%
150 Knowsley 43.70%

I don't doubt that the London Boroughs have some pockets of deprivation and that some parts of Stoke on Trent and Blackpool will have some wealthier areas, but the overall picture is very plain.

Could I add that if the figures are by children educated in the LEA two of those said Boroughs are homes to 'superselective schools', so selecting children from a very wide catchment area.

LaVolcan Could I add that if the figures are by children educated in the LEA two of those said Boroughs are homes to 'superselective schools', so selecting children from a very wide catchment area. I don't know these areas but in the case of super selectives, there are two possible scenarios that could (not to say they are) affect the perceived overall academic attainment within an area:

Children from outside the area with very high academic abilities are increasing the overall number of high level achievers in the area, altering the balance between high, middle and bottom achievers in relation to national averages.

Children from outside the area with high academic abilities are displacing lower academic achievers who are been educated outside the area due to insufficient school places to accommodate both the existing and the extra.

Again, to stress, I've nothing to suggest that this is in fact happening.

2012/13 stats for Northern Ireland.
79.6% of yr12 children achieved 5 or more GCSEs A*-C.
97.3% of grammar school pupils achieved 5 or more GCSEs A*-C, 67.2% of children in non grammar schools did the same.

65.2% of yr14 children achieved 3 or more A-levels (A-C). 77.2% of grammar school pupil achieved 3+ A-levels (A-C), 45.4% of non grammar pupils did the same.

In the academic year 2012/13, 41.3% of children attended grammar school, 58.7% attended non grammars.

NI is a wholly selective system. Grammars must accept pupils to their capacity.

It's not a secret that you have cleverly unearthed, but I'm happy to say wow, well done if that's what you were hoping for!

Huh?

Those NI figures are interesting. Fascinating that it's c. 60:40 grammar/non grammar- nearly half go to grammar school! And the A*-C for the non grammar schools are very good indeed. I wonder what sort of schools they are and what the selection process is. Based on those figures alone, it looks as if the non grammar schools do better by their kids than the grammar schools do........

High schools, comps and there are 17 independent (private, fee paying) schools.

Two things that spring to mind about the NI system:

1. There are actually 4 main types of school: there are grammars and high schools, but each of these comes in Catholic or Protestant flavour. Also some of these are single sex (and there is a smattering of integrated schools). So in practical terms each DC may not have a lot of choice in their school.

2. There is usually an oversupply of teachers in NI, more people train than can be employed (not sure if this is still the case). Certainly there is a lack of the sort of jobs that the brightest graduates would normally be expected to take. So better quality teaching maybe?

How many genuinely comprehensive schools are there in N Ireland, i.e. ones taking the full cross section of ability? If the Grammar Schools take 40% of the bright children, and the private schools scoop up some more, there doesn't seem to be much scope left.

I was going to ask that- with 40% going to grammar schools the can't be any comprehensives at all. Is there a choice of a catholic and Protestant for everyone?

Well, where 40% of kids go to grammar, there aren't going to be any genuine comps, are there?

Sorry, x-post.

"Is there a choice of a catholic and Protestant for everyone?"

Well, theoretically, but people tend to stick with the religion they were born into...

Seriously though. Yes, most areas will have both types of school. What tends to happen is the Catholic kids will go to the Catholic school, so the Education And Library Board (LEA equivalent) run schools, theoretically non-denominational, become Protestant by default. And their daily act of worship will be CofE (CofI) style anyway.

I suppose if you live in a rural area that is very, er, monocultural, you might only have one choice. But then you'd probably just travel to the 'right' school.
Kids came on quite epic journeys to get to my central Belfast grammar. And NI is so small that most of it is within commuting distance of a city, depending how long you're prepared to spend sitting on the Ulsterbus of a morning.

I've just been looking at entrance criteria, and despite the near-complete faith segregation, ironically faith criteria are not on there. Just a vague statement about sharing the school's philosophy. I guess given the climate there, they trust people to know their place!

LaVolcan, there aren't really private schools in NI, as far as I know there is only one fee paying school. Although you can attend the 'voluntary' grammars as a fee paying student, but in reality very very few pupils do, the vast majority are not fee paying.

It is also not the case that there are Protestant schools, there are state schools and Catholic grammars, but not Protestant grammars, although it is of course the case that by default the majority of pupils at most state grammars are from a Protestant background. But some grammar schools in an area where there is no Catholic grammar will have a fairly mixed intake. And there are integrated schools which actively seek to have a fairly evenly balanced intake.

There are not very many comprehensive schools, although they are more prevalent in some towns than others. Afaik, there are more Catholic grammars than state grammars, with Catholics making up a smaller proportion of the population. I'm not sure how that corresponds to actual places available at grammar schools, as obviously they will have different sizes of intake, but I'm guessing that it might equate to having a wider choice of schools available, since all the state schools are also available to Catholic pupils too. In the area where I live, the most oversubscribed school is the one comprehensive. It is the only comprehensive in about a thirty mile radius, but its also the only integrated school in the same radius, so its not clear if its popularity is because of its integrated nature, it's comprehensive nature, or a combination of both.

I have no idea how the education system works in the rest of the UK, but what it really great about here is that there is none of this crap about your parents having to be able to afford to live in a particular area in order to get you into a decent school. Selection at 11 isn't perfect I admit, but it's a lot fairer than getting stuck with a lesser school on the grounds of your address. And also, the non grammars have often got very good reputations too. Many non grammar pupils go on to university for example.

I think I cross posted with boulevard. In my nearest town there are kids who come from 30 miles away in order to attend the local Catholic grammar. It's a very very good school , so again it's hard to actually work out if that is because the parents want their kids educated in a Catholic school, or because it's got the best results. Bit of both presumably. They travel the same distance to come to the comprehensive which has less than stellar results, but a good overall reputation.

I'm in a city and when the time comes for DS to transfer, the choice is dizzying. Single sex, co-Ed, Catholic, Quaker, state, integrated and now some grammars are specializing.

But Dione, what I was trying to get across is that a lot of that isn't actual choice, it's that you go to the appropriate school for your demographic niche. Once you rule out all the schools you can't go to because of your religion/gender/11+ result/bus route, there's often not much choice at all.

Unless you live within commuting distance of Belfast and are choosing from the central grammars there. Even Derry has only one state-run grammar; Catholics have 2x single sex and a co-ed to choose from (source:Wikipedia). Enniskillen looks similar.

Dione I've only just noticed your post about 17 fee paying schools, I had no idea there were 17, I thought there was just Rockport. Is that the name? The one in Holywood.

Where are the others, do you know?