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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

Yr 7 DD's sets - should I query?

28 replies

jennieflower · 04/09/2014 22:17

My DD did pretty well through primary school, she had a slight blip with her maths teacher who predicted her a 4 in her sats, but she actually achieved a 5b, which apparently was a big surprise to the teacher.

I've checked her high school timetable and she's been put into set 3 (of 3) for maths, I suspect her set placing was determined by her predicted sats grade and not the actual grade. Does this sound right? Should I question the schools decision to put her in set 3 or wait for them to evaluate her themselves? I don't want to come across as overly pushy but also don't want her to waste time doing work that doesn't stretch her in the right way.

OP posts:

donkir · 04/09/2014 22:22

I had this with ds last year he was downgraded in a few subjects which I wasn't happy about but didn't say anything.
I'm glad I left it as after a few months he got put in to top set everything and his sense of achievement was great.
Now going in to year 8 he has nearly exceeded his end of year targets already.

noblegiraffe · 04/09/2014 22:36

Schools are far less likely to set based on teacher assessment than actual SATs score. Are you sure she is actually in set 3/3? A lot of schools won't have set yet and will be doing their own assessments in the first few weeks of term and will set based on those.

TalkinPeace · 04/09/2014 22:38

do you know the grades of all the other kids in the cohort?
because without that info its not possible to comment on setting decisions generally

nipersvest · 04/09/2014 22:46

i'd leave it to the school, dd is in yr8 and her secondary don't ask yr6 sats results, they do their own testing. plus for maths, there were 3 sets and dd asked the teacher which set she was in, teacher said there was one top set and the other 2 classes were mixed ability, so there was no bottom set. maths was the only subject that was streamed in yr7 and the streaming didn't happen until after half term.

circular · 04/09/2014 22:47

Also have very upset DD2 here with maths setting, which is supposed to be based on a combination of SATS, CATS taken in July and primary school report, She was amongst a handful that pased the level 6 paper, report was solid level 5, but finds herself in set 3. They have been told they were starting with level 4 work. This is a non-selective school, I believe it's set 3 of 4 within the top band, but will certainly be questioning it.
Can only think she had a really bad day on her CATS.

If in doubt OP I think best to question. If several weeks go by with the higher sets doing more challenging work, could end up being to much to catch up on if they do move up.

noblegiraffe · 04/09/2014 22:50

I can't believe that a school would genuinely put a level 6 kid in set 3 of 4, even if they did balls up their CATs. I'd definitely check it wasn't a mistake.

If it wasn't a mistake I'd ask them what they were playing at!

circular · 04/09/2014 22:59

Noble I think realistically its set 3 of about 8 as there are 3 bands, each with sets within them. The only other thing I can think of is that DD2 is quite under confident at maths, so that could have been reported from primary.
In set 1 for science, which I thought was also based on maths scores.
The others with level 6 from her primary are both in set 1, although DDD says they are better than her.

Will definitely question, as she will be devastated (and bored) at having to go back over level 4 work.

gleegeek · 04/09/2014 23:34

Watching this with interest!

Dd got level 5s for SATs (school didn't report individual results but said dd had done well) but she doesn't appear to be with any children from her previous sets so far, rather she's with a real mixed bag of mainly lower ability children. Trying not to panic and hoping they will shift her when they get going on work, but after her previous school having low expectations of her which she far exceeded, I'm concerned they will have passed this on to her current school. How soon is too soon to start asking questions???

ThinkIveBeenHacked · 04/09/2014 23:42

Is her secondary school really small? Set three of three usually means three classes.....thats tiny!

Original poster

jennieflower · 05/09/2014 08:18

Thanks all, it's a pretty big intake of nearly 200 pupils this year, I asked a current yr11 pupil how many maths sets there were and she said 3 sets but each set is split into 2 smaller groups due to size.

I asked her primary school teacher during the last parents evening how the sets would be determined, she said that the Sat results were published too late in the year for them to have any bearing on their set placing, and it was usually initially down to the primary school teachers assessment, they would only go by the sats result if there was a big difference between predicted grade and actual grade.

I think I'll give her a week or two to find her feet then I'll query it with the school.

OP posts:

ElephantsNeverForgive · 05/09/2014 08:29

Absolutely query, IME setting is not as carefully considered as it should be.

DD1 messed up her numeracy CAT (dyslexia and the style of questions don't mix).

Got stuck set 3 of 4 for maths and science, clearly utter lunacy for someone who got an A for maths and science in her recent GCSEs and who's best subject has always been science.

When setting in Y7 they ignored the fact she had a L5 for Science and a well above average NVR CAT, barmy.

Kez100 · 05/09/2014 12:18

Can I just add to say when my son found himself in the wrong Maths set it was blindingly obvious as he finished work so fast and kept asking for extension work....and more extension work. It didn't take them long to move him!

TeenAndTween · 05/09/2014 12:53

If it's a halfway decent school it will keep a close eye on initial setting and adjust at half term or Christmas.

Furthermore if it's a halfway decent school it will continue to keep a close eye on setting throughout the academic years. DD1 started y7 in set 7/10 for maths (correctly) and has slowly moved up. Now entering y11 she has just been moved to 3/10.

TalkinPeace · 05/09/2014 13:32

DCs school shuffled the sets every half term through year 7 based on almost constant testing
BUT
I reiterate - setting is by its nature relative not absolute
in a cohort of 200 only the teachers know all of the relative placings

inthename · 05/09/2014 14:11

having a similar problem. ds is yr 8, assessed as 7B national curriculum at end of year 7 (independent school)
The person who creates the timetables has dumped him in the bottom set for science, so it really can be that arbituary!

JBX2013 · 05/09/2014 14:25

I have worked in schools, including as a teacher.

It's obvious to the teacher when someone is in the wrong set: the pupil's attitude and work speak for themselves.

So I would leave it and wait for the school to work it out. Speak to the school next term if nothing changes and you still want a higher set.

ElephantsNeverForgive · 05/09/2014 15:35

Yes it's obvious when you've put some one in the wrong set, but changing it mid term/year is disruptive and means the teacher has put in some effort and admit they were wrong.

Some teachers are very bad at both and it takes a kick up the arse to make them do anything.

This can frustrate other teachers (in co-set subjects) as well as the child and their parents.

TalkinPeace · 05/09/2014 15:45

but changing it mid term/year is disruptive and means the teacher has put in some effort and admit they were wrong.
how / why is it disruptive?
if the whole of year 7 do maths at the same time some kids just change rooms
the whole point of setting is that it is flexible

ElephantsNeverForgive · 05/09/2014 16:32

Because different sets do things at a different speed and in a different order.

In DDs case her group were redoing L5 stuff she could do, while the set above were heading for L6.

However, it was maths who were happy for her to move and science (which she could do in her sleep who were being awkward).

The head of science was happily using her as his TA, with the pretence of improving her social skills

She's actually fetched up being an unpaid TA in science lessons all through school, she is tempted to send them a bill after A levels.

circular · 05/09/2014 18:30

Nobel since found out that it was entirely based on tests school did. Apparently they do not even receive primary school data for at least another month. Now I have volunteered the info it is being looked into.

Elephants Agree entirely. if it's left too long can make catching up too difficult.

schokolade · 05/09/2014 18:36

No harm in asking them how she came to be in that set, and saying that you're asking because you're surprised.

kormasutra · 06/09/2014 08:13

My ds has asc and struggled to concentrate during his SATS.
He got a level 5 in English, 4 in maths and 3 in science( which he hates ) and has been placed in set 5/8.

My concern is that they are in the same set for everything, including art etc which he is absolutely amazing at.

He has already said this week that the maths/English has been " too easy"
And also he's doing Spanish instead of French which annoyed me as apparently he was supposed to choose one by means of a letter sent home earlier in the year which we clearly never received.

I did French at university and ds loved it at primary school.

I don't want ds to struggle in the wrong class but also don't want him to find the work easy.
Hopefully after a few weeks it will be apparent if he's in the right/wrong class.

lordnoobson · 06/09/2014 08:15

Way too early. My big tip with schools is to choose your battles. This will be sorted without you.

whathaveiforgottentoday · 06/09/2014 09:58

Give them time. Most of the schools I've worked in re set the year 7 classes by christmas at the latest and if there are glaring errors they may shift him earlier. For numerous reasons, the data that comes up from KS2 can be unreliable and often we have missing data so we prefer to set them our own test and re set on that. Even then, we will move kids if they are obviously in the wrong set.

ByTheSea · 06/09/2014 10:01

I also don't get the setting. We moved just before DD2 started year 7 last year. She finished primary with levels 5a in English and 5b in maths - in line with teacher assessments at her primary. Her secondary was not familiar with her primary whereas most of the other children came from feeder schools. Her secondary sets separately for English and Maths and then bands for the other subjects based on these sets. There are 5 sets and 5 bands. At the beginning of year 7 she was put in set 1 for English, set 2 for Maths and Band 2. I was surprised to see her in set 2 and band 2, but was advised that these things are flexible.

So, we received a letter at the end of the summer that they were moving her to set 1 for Maths. So now she is in set 1 for English and Maths (and PE which they also set once into Y7) but band 2 for all her other subjects. I would have thought they'd move her band up but they haven't. It doesn't make sense to me, and I hope it won't hurt her later, particularly as she is very strong in some other subjects in which she is band 2, notably history, geography, RS and languages.

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