Thoughts on DD's A Level choices

[Blinne]

DD has just started sixth form and is taking English Literature, Economics, Physics and Psychology at AS level. She is well-rounded in her studies but does enjoy essay subjects. She intends to do Law but is wanting to keep her options open. Do you think these subjects will give her a good choice of future courses / jobs ?

Thank you for your help!

You may be right about the arts. Which traditional subjects do you mean? Hers are all traditional - History, Geography, Physics, Biology.

Daughter those in the legal sector include many who are highly creative. One contemporary of mine left the Bar to write Hollwood scripts. Lots belong to the uni drama groups such as Footlights. Many are exceptionally musical. Etc. I think you're pigeonholing incorrectly. Unfortunately your DDs GCSE results may hold her back from getting onto a reputable law course, as things stand at the moment, as they would be very much at the lower end of results for those applying. Of course in a couple of years time things may have eased generally, but law is not likely to be one of those needing to lower its grades anytime soon.

Sorry, I meant things may have eased in the HE world, but law isn't likely to be one of those courses needing to lower its grades - it's likely to remain very competitive.

DaughterDilemma, I suspect your DD would find it hard to get an architecture offer without maths at A-level (but I gather that architecture was your suggestion rather than something she actually wants to do).

Thanks Molio, I was under the impression that A level and Degree qualifications would be what employers would be looking at. But surely careers aren't mapped out by GCSEs alone and there are changes over time based on an individual's ability to do the job well?

You don't need maths for architecture, physics is fine.

Physics may well be a struggle without at least an A in maths at gcse, and whilst gcse results shouldn't matter to career choices and it is important to do something that fits with your personality type, gcses are what gets you onto A levels which are what gets you to university, so gcses are an indicator (not the only one) of future academic success.

People do return to education later on of course, but it's harder as a rule when you have job, family etc, and if you've already started at university when you were younger there are no loans for fees, so kids need to think carefully about what they want and realistically how and if they can achieve that.
ILEX for example may be a better route for a child with B and C grade gcses. (I know nothing about this as a route though!)

Titchy she got 2 As, 1 A*, 7Bs and 1 C. She is already 'got on' to A levels at 6th form science specialist school doing A levels Physics, History, Biology and Geography.

What is ITEC?

• ILEX?

Oh sorry daughter I thought you meant law too I didn't read your post properly! I'm not sure on architecture.

I do know on some courses with a maths/formulaic element (again not sure on architecture) that if there's no maths at a level sometimes they won't take you, or if they do they want very high gcse maths. Would definitely be worth a check on maybe a few of each 'tier' of universities to see entry standards.

Those were the traditional type ones I meant, although geography perhaps not as much. But with the others all being very strong subjects I don't think it would matter. Definitely look further into the maths issue though just incase it is a 'preferable' subject, saying that if she doesn't enjoy maths there wouldn't be any point in we doing an a level in it as she would probably not be interested and fail at the expense of a subject she enjoyed and could do very well in! Minefield isn't it!

Daughter of course GCSEs are relevant. They will be a potentially decisive factor in determining the offer of a place at university. If she wants to read law at a university with a good reputation - so one employers will regard well - she will struggle with mostly Bs at GCSE. In that sense they are extremely important. One B here or there won't matter but a majority at B very likely will.

I didn't mean your daughter would probably fail maths, I typed quickly without thinking, I mean it may not be worth it etc

She means perhaps consider the legal executive route.

I lose economics and psychology for maths if she wants to keep her options open - neither are facilitating A levels and maths opens rather more doors. If she's set on law though it's less of an issue. I guess I agree with Cerisier!

I agree with rogue dad. Depends how fixed she is on law. Many 16 year olds change their mind, so maintaining flexibility is good for most, and that means subject combinations which allow you to continue any of them to the next level. Maths will allow that.

Daughter, in my school, someone would not be allowed to do Physics A level without an A in Maths GCSE as a minimum. The majority of people taking Physics A Level,will be doing Maths A Level and often Further Maths too. It does require high levels of mathematical ability. The few who are not doing Maths A level, will usually have an A* or at very least an A an GCSE maths. Tbh, the chances of a high grade in Physics A Level, without at least A grade GCSE are very low.

Of course, a lot of your course options and universities available to you are determined by your GCSEs, which are also then the best predictor of success at A Level. She has been accepted onto the courses, by a place which clearly has lower requirements than many....very many places want an A at GCSE to continue to A Level now. Her clutch of Bs, with a few As thrown in will be fine for many places, but don't predict the A level success needed for the top places and most competitive courses. I don't say that to be cruel, but I do think it is important for parents and pupils to be aware of the likely outcomes from different starting points.

And to people who look in the prospectus to see what specific subjects are a definite requirement, you will find that there are usually very few definite requirements. however, this does not mean it is good or even advisable not to take certain subjects. So Maths might not be an absolute requirement in many subjects, but is highly desirable, and candidates with it are more likely to get offers, when having that subject is a big advantage, if not deemed absolutely vital.
If in doubt, speak to the universities and ask about the typical profile of their students in terms of subjects and grades achieved. The grades mentioned in prospectuses can also be a little misleading. Whilst the prospectus might say the offer is AAB for example (and is) the vast majority of people on popular courses have grades far better than that. Offers may well not be given to most candidates who have predictions of AAB, but to those with A*AA for example.
So the point is, don't look for courses where you just scrape the requirements,mor make choices of A levels based on scraping requirements. You need to be looking to optimise yourself as a candidate for that subject,if it is highly competitive....this means the best subject combinations and grades, not just the minimum requirements.....because so many candidates will have so much more than the minimum requirements.

Chocolate are you saying that if she got a B at GCSE she can't get an A at A level? She did no work for gcse at all, she is much more focused this year and in small classes. She is at an outstanding science specialist comp, nearly all the London schools demand B, some C. There are none demanding A that I know of, only the selectives and privates.

Someone said upthread that they go through all the maths again in physics A.

I don't think anyone's saying that she can't get an A, just that it's (statistically) unlikely from her GCSE grades, and thus she might be at a disadvantage when applying to university.

From Which?:
'Because of the assumed connection between your GCSE and A-level results, it’ll be down to you to prove you’re able to achieve top grades. Bs and Cs at GCSE are suggestive of Cs and Ds at A-level - which won’t be enough to get into some unis.'

Luckily for her, she will still do AS levels. Thus if she works her socks off and does well as AS, her predicted A2 grades could well be higher than a prediction based on her GCSE results. Good luck to her!

I realise your daughter's GCSEs are more of a mix than this -- it was just to illustrate that the predictions for A level tend to be slightly below rather than above, their GCSE performance.

Thanks for explaining Kittieslane. She clearly does have to work her socks off, but I don't want to give up before she has even started because of general statistics. I took her to the BTEC college and they turned us away, saying she should do A levels. She has done a lot better than I did, and that was without much pushing from me. This year will be different though, might be time to enlist a tutor and a different, less trusting parenting approach.

I also think that private school pupils will aways have an advantage in the professions regardless of results - it's just the way it is. Fortunately the dividing line is slightly less stark than it was in my day. I think what others have said about finding the optimum career trajectory rather than fighting for the 'top' one makes sense.

Daughter, it is not impossible to get an A at A Level from GCSE grade B, but unlikely. In subjects such as Maths and Pure sciences, it is even more unlikely, hence many places requiring an A at GCSE.
However,of course not everyone is aiming for, nor can achieve an A. As someone upthread said, her profile would suggest Cs and DS at A Level, which can be useful grades onto a range of courses at certain universities. And you are right, it is good not to have a sense of limitation before you even begin. At the same time, being realistic is also important, especially when you start to look at universities and courses towards the end of the L6th.
The world has changed. The grades your daughter achieved at GCSE would have been considered very good back in our day. They are still good grades, but there has been grade inflation and candidates getting onto the most competitive courses at the most prestigious places these days, have very high A Levels and before that, usually a string of A*\A grades at GCSE. And yes, many of these students are from private and selective state schools....but many are also from Comprehensives too.

Good luck to your daughter.

"Daughter, it is not impossible to get an A at A Level from GCSE grade B, but unlikely."

Really? I must know an awful lot of unusual teenagers, then............

Haklyut, well statistically yes, you must know unusual people, if you are talking about those currently taking A Levels, rather than those of the 80s or early 90s. People with a B at GCSE in maths or a pure science, have D or E as their most likely grades at A Level. Of course there will be some (few) who go onto get A and a higher number to get a B and C, or U too, but D and E is the most achieved grade. If you look at ALIS results which schools and colleges use, you will see that based on GCSE result profiles, statistics are given for the liklihood of each grade at A Level. Although there will be people who get every possible grade from a B starting point, as I say,the most likely outcome is D or E at A Level.

But Hakluyt your DD went to an 'academic' grammar. Is that where you're extrapolating from? If so, I'm surprised at all the B grades at GCSE....... On the other hand if you're extrapolating from the sec moderns in your area, what is it that they do in their Sixth Form to fly against the stats that Wombat describes? Lots of parents would pay a small fortune for that :)