Is this a problem for medicine?

[retiringsoon]

DD has found out that she hasn't been selected as a prefect. She is v upset, mainly because she really wanted to do the role and put a lot of thought and care into her application. It's fair to say she was also a bit surprised as most of her peer group expected her to be successful and the rejection has come as a bit of a shock. I'm disappointed for her but also a bit concerned that it says something about how the school sees her and might have repercussions for her university applications and reference. She is a high achiever and does loads of extra stuff at school - sport, music, talks, mentoring etc, so a bit of a surprise really. All her immediate friends were accepted so she feels a bit left out and also, I think, perhaps slightly humiliated if that doesn't sound too silly. Any thoughts? It's sad to see her doubting herself now as a result of this. Advice/experiences very welcome!

I am a teacher and have some A level students applying for medicine each year. I have found that the most important things for medicine are 1) getting the grades and 2) relevant work experience. The other stuff e.g. being a prefect, extra-curricular, music, etc. is nice to have but not as important as those first two.

It is one thing that she won't be able to put on her personal statement, but I am sure many schools don't even have prefects, and other applicants will be coming from FE and 6th form colleges, so I doubt if any admissions people will be scanning her application and wondering why there is no mention of being a prefect. It is obviously disappointing for your DD if she had set her heart on it, but I don't think it will effect her future career plans.

Thanks. Would it affect a reference from the school, that she isn't one of the group they trust with this responsibility? I'm sure it doesn't really figure in the PS and she has lots of other stuff in there - just wondering about the reference.

We have no prefects at all and extra curricular stuff is limited and patchy. The school has a very good track record of good University places and medical schools. However, I do think your DD ought to speak to the Head and try to find out of she can re-apply or where she fell short.

Yes, she is going to follow it up although reapplying isn't an option in her school but I think it would help if she has some concrete feedback.

retiringsoon the school will be writing her reference to put her in as positive a light as possible, they won't say "she wasn't a prefect" on it. Or you'd hope not!

As Cecily has said not all schools have them anyway, so it can't be a requirement.

What year is your daughter in? If she is in the 6th form, what were her GCSE grades and what is she predicted for AS? Grades are very important, certainly initially as there are so many applicants per place for medicine.

Maybe they wanted to let some others who are not high achievers academically have a chance for a change? Being a prefect has nothing to do with academic ability as far as I can see.

Maybe there are also some who they feel will rise to the challenge, as opposed to your DD for whom it would be just another thing in a long list?

Say they wanted 40 prefects and there are 60 perfectly good candidates, some of whom are less academic or short of things for their personal statements. I can see it would be perfectly reasonable to not select someone with your DD's long list. (Sorry).

In my DDs school, there were no prefects but there was a Head Girls' team of 6. My DD also was supported for a leadership role by teaching staff and pupils alike and had a fantastic track record of being widely involved in school activities and had also been a House Captain in her boarding house. She found out she was not on the interview list for the HG team 10 minutes before her French AS oral exam. She cried in the middle of the exam. I was so disgusted with the timing of the announcement that I did complain to the school. They had no real concept that my DD lived and breathed this school. Being rejected deeply upset her. They admitted the timing of the announcement should have been better. However, DD was still offered a place at Oxford. If your DD has the appropriate A levels, work/ volunteering experience, and strong desire to be a Doctor, she will succeed. Frankly, stuff the school because they pick people for all sorts of reasons but often the best don't get anything. Prove them wrong and go full steam ahead for medical school!

OP my DS was a senior prefect applying for medicine and it wasn't mentioned in the school reference and certainly not in his ps. He got three offers out of four (the least competitive of his choices, interestingly), so I can't think it matters a bit. Please tell her not to worry - she can use the freed up time to do other stuff/ enjoy herself instead :)

Just seen the last post. DS ended up at Oxford and was at the top of his year - this stuff is minor in the grand scheme, honestly.

It doesn't sound at all silly that she feels a bit humiliated. It won't, I am sure, have the slightest impact on her university applications - they are mainly about grades and anyway it sounds like she does enough extra-curricular stuff to tick those boxes anyway. But I do get exasperated by schools which are so useless about communicating ie just having a nice and honest chat with pupils about such matters. Tough for your daughter. If she feels up to it then maybe ask her tutor or head of year for the feedback and reassurance that she can count on the school for an appropriately glowing reference. Honestly, schools - it makes you wonder how they can be so gormless sometimes.

My dcs' school mentioned it briefly in the reference but it wasn't in the ps as my dcs had more relevant things to write up. These weren't applications for medicine but were Oxbridge.

Before telling the school that they were prepared to be considered as prefects in lower 6 the Head told them all that there would be a fair bit of extra work involved and would make no difference at all to university applications, so if they had heavy workloads and /or were applying for competitive courses, they might want to think carefully about whether they actually wanted to do the job.

So no, she doesn't need to worry.

Thanks so much for these thoughts. She has great GCSEs and has good hopes for strong ASs so I think it should be true that this won't have much effect. Milly, you have summed up how she is feeling though. I think it's as much that she always seems to have been seen as an obvious candidate for these leadership roles and she does also love the school, so the whole thing is as much a shock as anything else. She feels rejected but in some ways it's a reality check and something she can learn from. And hopefully she will be fired up to prove them wrong. Thanks again.

Unfortunately being the obvious one makes for a much harder knock when you don't even get on the shortlist! My DD broke down uncontrollably minutes before the exam but was still made to do it. She was, and is, an able linguist and I do not know, to this day, why her oral could not have been rescheduled due to her huge distress. She did not deserve to be treated like that. Reality check , maybe, but very very hard to take at that particular moment in her life.

Please reassure your DD that she can overcome not being chosen. She can get where she wants to be. In our school everyone knew who should have been in the mix. Your DD may well find her teachers are now very supportive in helping her succeed. They usually know a good student when they see one. All the best to her.

Another one here to add their expereince that this will not matter one jot for medicine. Or to any subject for a high academically achieving candidate.

Medicine admissions tutors are looking for something extra - but not this. They're after commitment to medicine and relevant work experience. They don't care about flute and athletics. Although medicine students generally do have extra stuff going on.

Example - in my DDs top indie girls school, there is a head girls team of 12 prefects. I think this year there are maybe 8 medics - I think one is a prefect and the others aren't. There is no correlation between offers for prefects or not. The only correlation we can see, after GCSEs and AS levels is BMAT and UKCAT scores. And then, unfortunately, there's that bloody random factor which leaves a stunning candidate with no offers, and no one can figure out why.

Schools can be remarkably insensitive at times. DD's school gives out an award early in Y13 to the best scholars, based on AS results. The award didn't really signify anything - it had no monetary or other value; the numbers were not limited. It was just the Headmaster's way of saying "well done you".
Her bf got straight A but no award. As he was applying to Oxbridge at the time it was a real kick in the teeth. It's a real pisser, just when you are gearing up to present yourself as better than the next applicant, to find that your own school doesn't rate you.

If it's any consolation, in five years' time she won't give a monkeys!

I think schools vary between those who heap all such honours on a golden few and those who actually give it to those who need more on their 'CV'.
Not having it actually frees up more time to develop in more important directions both for university entrance and life

Beck medicine is one of the subjects where even at Oxford and Cambridge they do appear to care about flute and athletics. Not because they care about flute or athletics in themselves, but because they need to see evidence that a student will be able to deal with the huge workload/ stress. Being a prefect has nothing to do with this aspect of an application whatsoever and I agree completely that it's not a deal.

Incidentally, have you really known stunning candidates left with no offers? Perhaps not an offer at a BMAT uni, but it must be almost unheard of for a 'stunner' to be left with no offer at all. I'd say that if the academic side is all in place along with any aptitude test and work experience, then a rejection is likely to be either because of an arrogant air/ lack of empathy or evidence of being too easily stressed - both of which, for medicine, could be a problem and either one of which may be more likely to be found in those at the top of their school.

I doubt any university would give it any consideration. What she does need to do to be in with a chance at medicine is make sure she has some relevant work experience.

One of the local schools when I was growing up awarded prefectships to those who they thought needed to develop responsibility ie the ones who were a pain in the nect. Wasn't a good idea.

I mean this in the nicest way, but if she is very upset over not being a prefect maybe it is time to reconsider medicine?

The application process is horrible. There are young people with stunning grades and work experience who do not get offered places, every single year. Everyone applying is very, very good and there just aren't enough places for them all.

It's grim but you have to go in with the mindset that being rejected is a real possibility.

Perhaps not an offer at a BMAT uni, but it must be almost unheard of for a 'stunner' to be left with no offer at all

I don't think it is that uncommon at all. I have known two straight A* candidates with work experience not to get any interviews at all first time round. Both reapplied after A levels and got offers. The only difference between the two applications was the length of time doing WE (not not the type) and they had their A level results.

Yes, molio I'm afraid in both my elder DS year and this years A2 DD's cohort I know of girls who didn't get offers - all the usual credentials - 8or 10 A*GCSEs , 5 As at AS ( in the right subjects) gold duke of Ed, hospice volunteering etc and no offers. And neither of them are arrogant at all.

But we don't know what goes on in interview, do we - they may have been too diffident or had a series of really bad days.....

For the elder DDs friend, she applied again post A level and got a place at Birmingham and the younger DDs friend is likewise planning another application this year.....

Everyone applying for medicine is a 'stunner' (especially in their own little ponds at school!) and there just isn't room for them all.

I too would suggest thinking very carefully about medicine if she found the prefect rejection difficult.

Medical schools won't give the proverbial whether your DD is a prefect or not! (My DS is a medical admissions tutor). They want to see top grades, including an A Level in Chemistry, and clear dedication to becoming a doctor (e.g. volunteering in a nursing home, work experience as a medical receptionist). The school will NOT give her a bad reference.

I find the idea that universities care about such things as prefects or sport to be bizarre, frankly, and I've done admissions in several RG universities including Oxbridge.

And no, Oxbridge, in my direct experience, do not care about flute or athletics for medical admissions. They care about activities that show that your child would make a compassionate, dedicated, ethical doctor.