Ok, we've just got into primary - how long have I got before I need to start thinking about secondary (London)?

[CocoaBeanPlease]

We've been very lucky and DD1 got into a lovely outstanding local CofE primary for this September. It's very oversubscribed, so we've been on tenterhooks for a while until we finally got the good news.

So now we can hopefully relax and forget all about school admissions for a bit... Or can we? I have no idea what applying for secondaries is like, so I thought I'd ask all of you with very fresh experience what you thought. When do you think is a sensible time to start thinking about secondary to make sure we do not limit our options too much? I expect we've already affected our choices by not going private for primary (and I assume there are some silly places that require signing up at birth), but generally speaking, when do we need to start figuring out where we'd like her to go so we can put names down, etc.

If it matters, we're in NW London and still undecided as to private or state (DH is quite keen on private, I am less so).

Really hoping you all say there's nothing to be done until the year before applying so I can just bury my head in the sand for the next few years, but somehow I doubt it!

Not in London, in leafy area with superb comps.

If you are thinking state then start y5. Go to open days / evening then to get a feel. Then go back to most favoured/realistic in y6 and choose.

If in grammar area and you want child to go to grammar, then from what I read on here y1 should be early enough for additional tutoring. Seriously ~y3 to start finding out what is needed?

If considering private then I have no idea at all. Maybe you should check out views on local state secondaries now. If OK that's fine. If dire then maybe not so. Though of course lots can change in 7 years.

I agree with Teen for state secondaries I would go on the school open days in year 5, helps you to narrow down the schools you really don't want. It's like a rugby scrum for the popular schools so you won't feel so stressed and tired looking . I was exhausted by the end of it all went to 7 schools in my borough taking DD with me.

I think once your child is at primary you tend to pick up information from other parents, the childrens' siblings and the general talk in the area. Primaries tend to list which schools their year 6s get into each year. I agree year 5 is a good time to start preparing.

Be careful not to write any schools off though. My DD2's went from awful to pretty good in a few short years.

If you are C of E and your child is baptised and a church goer you may have quite a wide choice depending on where you are as the distance for church places is normally quite far.

For a selective private school you need to start preparing at the beginning of year 5. If Henrietta Barnett (state grammar, open catchment currently) is on your list - probably year 4!

DS1 got an academic place at a partially selective state secondary school. We started preparation at the beginning of Y5. The test was in the autumn of Y6, a year later.

If you are looking at secondary schools that don't require a selection test, then you could still start doing some research in Y5, and go to open days either in Y5 or Y6. Most state secondary schools have their open days in September/October, as the deadline for applications is 31 October.

Don't do what some parents do and just list the schools you like, then complain when your child isn't given a place at any of them.

You need to look at the admissions criteria for each school (available from their websites) which should give you an idea of whether your child will meet those criteria. If you're unsure (e.g. how far the distance goes out) ask the school for the cut-off figures from previous years.

Once you have a shortlist of schools where your child will/might meet the admissions criteria, then you can visit those, decide which you prefer, and list them in order of preference (including at least one certainty as a back-up).

I agree every year I hear appeals where parents have just put one school and ended up a worse one miles away.

Admissions criteria can change from year to year. So check if any new ones are proposed for schools you are interested in (and object or not).

Quite a few London schools have specialisms such as art or music, and they select 10 per cent on aptitude which is another way in.

You need to start thinking in year 4, I'd say. That gives you time to move and be in position by the time you apply for state school places based on geographic location. Or, to do extra preparation in year 5, if you decide to try for a grammar school or a selective independent.

I hear of people starting test prep before then, but it doesn't make sense to me. Starting grammar school test prep in year 3 is a bit like starting potty training at 12 months. It would be a lot of hassle and pretty pointless. Up until the middle of year 5, I think you just need to make sure that they are doing well and keeping up with their regular work, imho.

Another vote for year 5 but we needed a bigger house so took secondaries into consideration when we were looking at where to move to.

By the time year 6 rolls round most of the open days here (Yorkshire) are actually in October and applications have to be in 31st October meaning it feels quite rushed.

The schools advertise their open days as current year 6 only, but I would ignore that.

We were just lucky that Ds1 is currently in an outstanding very over subscribed primary and he will attend an outstanding over subscribed secondary that is our nearest school due to the house move. We don't have catchment area here so we researched the admissions criteria for the secondaries we were interested in.

We attended the open day (to see children in school) the open evening and we visited during a normal day when staff and children weren't forewarned about visitors.

You could go private as your DH suggests. Not all schools are so difficult to get into and it is far less stressful! No great planning is needed and plenty take at 11 and set their own exams. Certainly in your area you could find some good independent schools not that far away!

Late year 4 is the earliest to bother really (much earlier and it could have all changed by the time you get there). Year 5 is the good time for you as parents to look seriously and decide on your preferences. Then take DC to open days/visits at the beginning of year 6.
If you are going private or want to change religion or move or are looking at a Grammar, you may need to start earlier.

Thank you so much for all your very useful replies! I'm happy to see that it looks like we do have a few quiet years ahead of us.

I like the idea a lot of you suggested of doing the visits in Y5. That does mean figuring out what our options are in Y4 - but good point about not looking too far ahead as it can all change.

Interesting mention of Henrietta Barnett. I didn't realise there were grammar schools in London, and that one is quite close to us. We wouldn't push DD if she's not cut out for a selective school, but if she shows some natural aptitude we'll definitely keep that option in mind (DH went to a grammar school, so he'd be very happy with that).

On the state/private decision, I still struggle to get my head around the idea that a decent state school with good support at home is not enough for a child to fulfill their potential. But I'm not from the UK, so I will probably have to bow down to those with more experience of the British education system...

It's probably getting a bit ahead of myself, and going a bit off topic, but I've often wondered how you go about coming up with "the list". Surely with state schools there isn't that much choice: in the end it's going to be distance based as all the good ones will be oversubscribed so you only get in if you live close by? I guess with private there are more options. But are your 11 year olds traipsing halfway across London by themselves? To a mother of a 4 year old it's hard to imagine

You are right that there is no "choice" as most places are decided on distance. Unless of course you are religious and there are faith schools fairly near. Otherwise you need to research the "aptitude" route. DD2's school offers 10 per cent of places solely on this basis regardless of where you live. You will need to have a plan A, plan B and so on as the better schools are oversubscribed.

My elder DD commuted a long way to a grammar school in SW London. Was it worth it? Probably not but it seemed like the best option at the time. The grammar schools are almost impossible to get into and her school is now going to prioritise locals anyway.

Most kids do travel whether to state or private school. 45 mins is not uncommon.

I'm I'm not much further along the path than you OP. At the moment yes, you can basically relax. Over the next couple of years do a bit of research about your available senior schools, have a think about what kinds of travel journeys are acceptable and look at the entrance criteria for the schools you think you might consider.

In a decent state school with good support at home your DD certainly can thrive, and many do. As a rough guide (and not that oxbridge entrance is a perfect measure of these things) over half the students at oxbridge are from state schools so they must be doing something right. It's just that the amount spent per-pupil at the average private school is about double what is spent per-pupil in the state, and naturally if you throw more resources at an issue you are going to get a better result, on average, so it's likely that your DD would get better A-level results in a private school than a state school - though by no means certain. A-level results are hardly the best or only measure of the success of an education though. Other people may choose private because they don't get a place at a decent state school and only have a choice between private or a terrible state school. Other people may choose private because no matter how decent the local state school is, they would rather their offspring only mixed with and befriended people of a similar level of affluence.

If you think you might be going for a selective private or a grammar, plan to start working towards the 11-plus exams from about age 7 or 8 (unless your child is already a genius of course). This doesn't need to be formal tutoring at first but make sure you are doing extra work at home towards maths, english and logic puzzles/reasoning.

If you think you might apply for an academy where some of the places are awarded based on specific talents e.g. in music then you'll need to identify what talents your DD has and start encouraging her to develop them - again from about age 7.

If you think you might apply for a Church senior school, most of them will have application rules that say how far back they will look at your church attendance in deciding whether you qualify. Find out what these are, and whether you will already qualify without doing any more than you would anyway. You may find you are slightly borderline in which case you may find you need to be a bit more assiduous about not missing quite so many Sundays from the time your DD is 8ish or so (depending on how far back they look). Remember these criteria can be changed so if you qualify now you may not qualify then.

So with all of these you can probably relax for at least a couple of years before you start planning for the next round...

A good state school can totally fulfill a child's potential.

But in London your "choice" maybe pretty illusionary. And unlike for instance the US, just living in the right area doesn't gaurantee you will get into the local school.
If your DD has the potential for Grammar, then you need to consider tutoring as very very few of those sitting the exams will not have been tutored and prepared for the entrance exams. Similar tutoring will happen for most private schools.

Your DH may also not be quite up to date with just how "competitive" school entry has become in a lot of schools in London and the SE. I know schools which accepted pupils 16 years ago, who really would not get in now.

But the thing to do now, is to sit back and enjoy your DD for the next few years. See how she develops, what her interests and aptitudes are - she may lead you to looking a very different type of school to the one you would choose at present.

You will figure it out by talking to others.

By y4 you can start looking at schools and criteria, in y5 visit all schools you consider.

I think Ofsted is overrated. In our town there is ond outstanding secondary, and one that is "only" good. They have the same value add score, same GcSE score, and both have excellent leadership and staff. Yet there is a scrum and tears and tantrums to get into the outstanding school.

Whereas the other school has much better pastoral care. If you have a sensitive child, that school might be better.

So steel yourself to not get caught up in the rat race. Some parents go bonkers, and you can get swept along.

Set out for yourself what us important for your child, then read those blasted Ofsted reports with a very critical eye!

Learn your way around the Dept of Edn statistics in individual schools - to interpret what it means - does the school enable each category of ability to meet their potential, especially the level your dd is likely to be at. This is a far better measure of a school than the overall GCSE stats, for example.

Children do very well indeed in comps that support children of their ability.

But you don't need to do this yet.

Henrietta Barnet is not exactly a grammar, it is a super selective. These are schools which are selective and take applicants from a very wide geographical area and so take the top percentage of applicants - often on a score way, way higher than the 11+ pass level, for example.

Well my original question has been very well answered and that means I really should just stop thinking about it now - which is tricky when you ladies are such a fountain of knowledge!

Thanks to all of you for the thorough and well-thought-out answers. I don't want to single anyone out, as you've all brought up really interesting points for me to think about. I feel much better prepared now that I know what my "known unknowns" are and I will definitely be coming back to this thread in a few years when I need to start coming up with a plan.

In the meantime, I will enjoy the comparatively stress-free life with a 4yo...

The only thing I would add, if you find yourselves veering towards private in a couple of years, is that the best advice on private secondary schools will come from a good head teacher at a private prep school.

She's 4 right?

Then just enjoy her for goodness sakes and delight in her wonderful joy of learning just for the sake of it; before the ridiculous competitiveness, comparison with other children, obsession with reading levels, Sats, tutoring, entrance tests, become all you find yourself talking about.

I do not envy you English MNers on this one lift!e bit! Here in Scotland the Dcs go to the nearest primary which feeds into the nearest secondary and that's it. It you want a different t school which is out of the catchment area you apply for a non-catchment place which seems to be usually awarded from our experience. Of course you can pay to go private anywhere. It seems so much more straightforward.
I suppose if your local area isn't great then neither will the secondaries be, but we live semi-rural not affluent,high unemployment etc and both dds now at uni after going through the system above so all OK. Good luck Op

Dementedma what happens if there are 32 4-year-olds with the same school as their nearest? Do they just magically get funding for running two small classes? Or do 2 people get bounced to having to go to their second-nearest school? Or does the maximum-30-to-a-class rule not apply?

I'm not sure fish. Generally I think they make two smaller classes or composite classes. Some of the bigger primaries round here have two reception classes to accommodate a large intake.

demented - the thing is in England the huge population boom in some areas. Well that and the lack of space in the same areas (never mind money) for new schools.
In the really crowded places schools have already got extra bilge classes, and in my town a lot of schools have already expanded by 50 to 100%. In a few years this will be feeding through to the secondary schools - in my town they are pretty much operating at full already. Rural areas are having even more problems as the schools they always went to are now often full - and the schools with places are an impossible journey.
In fact in one local village, all the children were offered a school less than 3 miles away - no problem except: there is no public transport between the two places and in winter if the road floods 3 miles becomes 6+. And they were fortunate, others have been offered schools much further away - still with no transport.