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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

At the end of my tether: no sanction harsh enough for yr 7 DD

55 replies

PermaShattered · 13/05/2014 09:42

I need help. My 12 year old is in Yr 7 (first high school year). Her behaviour has rapidly gone downhill at school. She gets detentions regularly (2x yesterday) for throwing things, and other incidents, for forgetting homework, uniform breaches, etc. The school is, as far as i can tell, dealing with it really well. But i've just taken a call from head of year who i have met with previously about my DD. She was with DD and it's clear she doesn't care what sanctions she receives. As head of yr said, it's very concerning that a year 7 pupil doesn't care if the most severe sanctions are imposed.

Her behaviour at home is also bad. Essentially, she has no respect for authority, whether home or at school. Any advice will be so welcome.

OP posts:
LaVolcan · 13/05/2014 21:33

I am not sure. An Agatha Christie story once turned on such a confusion about which 'she' was being talked about!

In which case though - since the other sister is older maybe try to enlist her help and tell her that although you are absolutely delighted with her results, little sister is very sensitive and so you need to try not to say anything in her hearing.

SpeedwellBlue · 13/05/2014 21:49

I thought it was about the younger dd when I first read it, but just reread and now think it was the older one. It mentioned that they were praising the older one for her marks and the younger one was hearing

Elsie20 · 13/05/2014 23:15

Hi

I don't know what I'm going to tell you will help but I had similar with my DS.

He went to a secondary school as the only child from his primary school, so did know anyone in his year. In fairness it was our first choice and his brother was also at the school, but from about week 3 of y7 he hated it.

His behaviour at the school was perfect but his behaviour at home was disgusting. He was a raging bull. Everyday was a huge nightmare, by 8am every morning I felt like I had done 10 rounds with mike Tyson.
The school was very good at listening, set things in place and I trusted them. We went through everything, taking him to our GP and analysing every part of our home life and his school life but we never got anywhere. This went on till the end of y9 by which time DS just flatly refused to go to school. In year 9 his attendance was 27% but his school still refused him a change of school and believed he would settle.

I took matters in my own hands by calling social services, having a EWO and everything and after grovelling to the head of children's services, DS had a place at another school.

We are now coming to the end of y10 at his new school and my sons attendance is 96%, he is predicted 3 A*'s, the rest A's and 1 B but the best bit is I have a very happy boy :)

I now realise the problem was just simply he was not happy at his first school, that there was never any further issue than that. We analysed it far too much and I also think the more attention he got the more attention he wanted from both home and school.

I do hope you work it out, I know how difficult and how stressful it all is. In fact my health was badly affected from the stress. There's only one thing I want in life for all my children and that is for them to be happy.

Martorana · 13/05/2014 23:25

I remember the complicated story last year- you and your dd must be completely exhausted by it. I think you need to cut both of you a lot of slack.....does her current school know what happened? It must have been awful for her,,,,l

SpeedwellBlue · 13/05/2014 23:40

That's really good news that things improved so much for your son when he changed schools. I hadn't realised how hard it was to move schools if you wanted to.

SpeedwellBlue · 13/05/2014 23:40

That was meant for Elsie

sashh · 14/05/2014 07:38

OK this sounds to me like (and this is teenager voice not rational adult voice) older perfect daughter got in to GS, older perfect daughter is getting A*.

Younger dd didn't get in to GS so sees no point in going to a non GS and will never get the same grades and the same praise so she might as well rebel, hopefully get kicked out to show them(no idea who 'them' is).

The fact that she is playing up means that on some level she cares, if she didn't she would just sit in silence.

She might also be finding the work too easy, adding to the 'unfairness' of her 'being stuck in this crap place where I don't belong in stead of at GS'.

She may also just hate the school.

I hated VI form, I was sanctioned for 'forgetting' homework which had actually been done and was in my bag with me but I didn't hand it in.

Is she achieving? She might be bored if she is able to achieve without working. Could the be put up a year, just for a week to see how she copes? Sometimes taking a disruptive student and making them work by giving them something they find hard can stop the disruption.

PermaShattered · 14/05/2014 08:59

Thanks so much for your comments and advice. Shortly, me and her dad are going to school to meet head of year so we’ll see what comes out of that .

In response to you all (sorry for length!):

Sanctions clearly aren't working. And look as if they will only push her into an ever esclating defiance against them. Maybe. I think there’s truth in this. But is the alternative to sanctions, effectively saying it’s ok to behave/speak disrespectfully? I’d never have dared to speak to my parents the way she speak to me and my husband!
She does try hard at school with her work, she loves to do her homework! In fact, I’ll have to ban tv on a Saturday more often as spent all day doing a fabulous Egypt project ? She’s getting great marks (the marks etc I mentioned earlier are her sister’s – sorry this wasn’t clear).

Clubs: She goes to a fantastic club Tues nights (she went last night – an exception to the current being grounded rule as it does her so much good). It was specifically set up for older children with low selfesteem and they do drama, singing, etc – at Christmas/Easter they go to hospitals and old people’s homes singing Christmas/Easter carols, do concerts etc. In summer they are doing show songs.

She does have an excellent singing voice which the group leader has commented to me on. Something her sister doesn’t. I’ve been thinking about singing lessons to build on this. But we’re already paying for piano lessons for 3 children, and viola for the eldest and violin for this DD! Wish I had a money tree!

Getting away on my own with her would be so hard. I have 4 children and juggling everything is tough (I run my own business too). HOWEVER! Next Friday she is the only child at home because of polling day – so I will plan something for her.

CAMHs – I’m going to ask school about this, and also (as my mum suggested) school psychologist.

Can you debunk the importance of GS with her - eg point out perfectly possible to go to very good unis from comps (I did) So did I. GS doesn’t seem to be an issue with her – she v rarely mentions it, it just doesn’t seem to be an issue at all. I think what IS an issue is the anger, disappointment, etc that was caused by what happened, that it’s had a far greater effect that what we imagined.

Our 2nd choice school is a possibility but she’s not shown a preference when she’s mentioned changing schools. BTW she’s not heard anything critical from us about her current school – quite the opposite. We’re really impressed how they are dealing with the situation.

LaVolvcan nowhere near Kent and not London ;) I don’t think she is being stretched enough. In fact, she has confessed that in English she’s deliberately disruptive so she can be sent to another class where she will actually learn something.

Elsie thanks for sharing, that is really usefully and I’m sorry to hear what you had to go through. I feel like I’ve run a marathon sometimes by 9am. And there are times when the stress of dealing with DD have made me ill. And feeling positively murderous! Thing is, if this school was making her unhappy I don’t think she’d be happy actually going to school in the morning.

Yes, the school does know what happened last year, and the head of year was pretty shocked when I told her. They also know of her sleep problems so accept that very occasionally she will be late into school.

Sashh you may well be spot on, particularly with the first few comments. Her sister rarely has caused us issues, and yes, she’s a top student. And DD sees this. I think there is jealousy in addition to everything else. But she knows we love and care for her as much as older sis and her two little brothers, and we praise her when she’s done well/good behaviour etc. But I think I’m going to ask the school to set more challenging work – maybe that will focus her mind more.

I’ll come back later, when had meeting at school and update. Thanks all, appreciated!

OP posts:
LaVolcan · 14/05/2014 09:17

Sorry for making assumptions about where you lived Perma! There are not all that many places with Grammar schools which is why I did so.

traviata · 14/05/2014 09:21

just a comment about 'disrespectful' behaviour at home; with DD (yr 7) I never let it go unremarked , generally by a quiet comment ("please don't talk to me like that"), but I do not give DD any sanctions for talking or behaving in a disrespectful way. It is only words, only an attitude, and generally driven by her emotions.

What she does is important (attending school, no aggression towards anyone, does her homework & music practice); what she says and how she says it is not important (manner, attitude, style, slamming the door, flouncing about). I make an exception for outright unkindness towards DS, and send DD out of the room if that occurs.

OP, especially from your last post, there is a lot to praise and affirm about your DD, and maybe she needs to hear that praise more often, not just when she has done particularly well.

schoolnurse · 14/05/2014 09:25

I've not read all of this (so apologies if you've answered this) but is there someone relatively independent who your daughter likes who she can talk too, a family friend/relative, someone who will speak for her on her behalf or do you have a good GP? Was she a model of behaviour in primary? If she was the IME children just don't change that suddenly without a genuine reason, if she always been difficult but not this bad then I think we would be pushing for a CAHMS referral (only your GP can do this) in fact I think she needs one regardless of past behaviour or an Ed psych referral (CAHMs should be your first choice) she needs some sort of assessment.
I don't want to lecture you but if she's going off to school having already been arguing and fighting with you at home she is not going to be in the right frame of mind to sit nicely in lessons and behave. Often I see children who are behaving badly in lessons or feeling "unwell" frequently on close questioning there's been some issue before they start school. If it's making you stressed and ill it's doing the same for her, children are complicated maybe she does seem to go off happily but this doesn't mean she's happy going. If there is some sort of jealousy/I'm not as good as my sister fighting between you and her won't help.
With regard to the sleeping issue no one functions well if they're not sleeping, we are seeing more and more of this, yesterday the BBC did lots on this and research shows that using iPads smart phone before bed is definitely a bad thing to do. There's lots of stuff on websites about "sleep hygiene" and also bananas before bed (anecdotal but worth a try).

traviata · 14/05/2014 09:25

sorry, that sounded so smug....I didn't express it well. I find my DD & her attitude very difficult.

HercShipwright · 14/05/2014 09:26

If she's getting great marks, could she transfer to the GS for Y8? If she knew about all the appealing and angst etc last year, then surely that was an implicit criticism of the school she is now at? That might be having an effect, even if it's only subconsciously. If she has told you she is being deliberately disruptive because she feels she isn't learning much/anything then that's a huge red flag. The school need to give her extension work to suit her ability. If that isn't happening and that distresses her (through making her bored) then something needs to change - either the level of the work she is given, or the school she goes to. It's not fair for an able Y7 to be bored in every lesson because the work is too trivial for her.

SpeedwellBlue · 14/05/2014 09:41

This
www.amazon.co.uk/Divas-Door-Slammers-Behaved-Teenager/dp/0091924111/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1400056738&sr=8-2&keywords=divas+and+dictators

is a useful book for improving teenage behaviour. The author runs a school for children who have been excluded from other schools and seems to know his stuff.

schoolnurse · 14/05/2014 09:44

"Could she transfer to the GS for yr 8"
The question is why would the GS take her? Assuming they're over subscribed which is why the OP's DD didn't get a place the first time round, they probably have a waiting list, and surely they will want a reference from the current school. Why take a disruptive child when you have other well behaved children desperate for a place? IME, outside of specialist units, or made to do by the LEA schools that take disruptive children (however bright) only do this because they have a vacancy they can't fill.

SpeedwellBlue · 14/05/2014 09:48

Oops, just remembered she isn't a teenager yet. Might still be relevant stuff though

HercShipwright · 14/05/2014 09:56

schoolnurse They didn't take her because she didn't pass the 11+. The situation now might count as exceptional circumstances. And places do come up at grammar schools from time to time.

LaVolcan · 14/05/2014 10:08

I thought that she did get a pass mark, but that there were more on the waiting list with higher marks. There were then a series of appalling blunders by the LA/school concerned which offered the place and then withdrew it. None of this was the fault of Perma and her DD but they are the ones which have suffered.

Ploppy16 · 14/05/2014 10:12

Could I offer a bit of hope?
My DS went this exact same way at this time last year in year 7. His teachers were totally baffled, as were we. He went from a good hard working lad to a total nightmare within the space of about a week. We tried everything, sanctions at home and school, praise, the school looked into getting him some 121 help in lessons, the lot.
In the end we just let him talk. It turned out that part of the reason was that he was really struggling in certain classes and it had knocked his confidence in his ability to do the work. He couldn't do the work so why bother? He kept that one to himself for months while we went round in circles wondering if he was being bullied, whether we should get him assessed, the works.
Once he let it out it was quite simple to deal with because his teachers knew that he could do the work and his grades have actually been pretty good.
I also had a meeting with a very experienced teacher who told me that he's seen it a lot in year 7 over the years because it is such a huge change from primary school. Once the newness of high school wears off the reality of the hard work needed hits them and some children find it harder to adjust than others. The fact that puberty hits around this age for many can also be a factor.
DS is year 8 now and the improvement is slow but steady. He's happier in himself, more relaxed at home and school and finding things much easier now he's developed the confidence to admit where he's finding things hard.

HercShipwright · 14/05/2014 10:14

LaVolcan As I remember it, it was a top x marks school. So the pass mark was the 120th (or whatever) mark. The point is, she didn't qualify THEN, but NOW it is a different situation, if her distress is being caused by being in the 'wrong' educational environment for her ability, to the extent it is possibly impacting on her health, mental or otherwise, then that's a different situation and the the GS might be willing or able to offer her a place for that reason, completely unconnected with the original 11+ debacle. And - crucially - unlikely to create a precedent or enrage the however many other kids who got 11+ marks between OP's DD's mark and the 'pass' mark. OP's poor DD is obviously very unhappy. She is entitled to an appropriate education.

schoolnurse · 14/05/2014 10:46

Herc I'm not arguing in the ideal world the GS wouldn't take her but sadly in education we are far from the ideal world. If I was the OP I would be considering lots of options as well as trying for a place at the GS.

Martorana · 14/05/2014 10:48

If the grammar school is oversubscribed, it is unlikely that an appeal for a place would be won on the grounds that the OP's dd is being made unhappy by the non grammar school. Appeals can only, as far as I know, be won on academic grounds.

HercShipwright · 14/05/2014 11:00

Mart It wouldn't be an appeal. It would be an attempt to transfer in Y8. There might be a place, you never know. People do leave grammar schools, for a variety of reasons (moving house being the most popular but not the only one).

It sounds as though, if there are MH issues, OP's DD is being made unwell by being at her current school. Not just unhappy.

Most GSs do have procedures for admissions in years other than Y7 and Y12.

LaVolcan · 14/05/2014 11:13

If it's decided that moving school was the best approach then why not try looking at those schools which have places for year 8? These needn't be the ones originally applied for.

Martorana · 14/05/2014 11:47

It would be an appeal. It is very unlikely that any grammar school would have places- in my experience there are waiting lists in all years. Sorry to be wet blanketish,I but I would hate false hopes to be raised.

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