Irrelevant questioning at school appeal

[Bow49]

Yesterday I received the letter advising that I had lost my dd's school admittance appeal – no big surprise considering how the appeal went! DD is devastated and I'm considering complaining to the EFA but before I do, does anyone have a view on the following please?

One aspect of the appeal concerned dd's anxiety issues (GP letter provided as evidence) and the fact that at the offered school she would know no one but at the appeal school she would have friends to support her. Also, the pastoral care at the appeal school is outstanding. The panel asked (and so considered relevant) if any of her other friends were going to a third school (yes) and why we hadn't included that school in our choices. I was quite taken aback by the harsh tone of the panel's questioning and actually felt chastised by one member in particular! I was a bit lost for words as I hadn't gone prepared to answer questions about a school that didn't even feature in our choices – though there are good reasons why. Surely the balancing stage is about considering prejudice to the appeal school against prejudice to my dd – the suitability or unsuitability of a school that wasn't even one of our choices is irrelevant? Or am I missing something here? I left with the feeling that the panel had already made up its mind prior to the hearing, not to allow the appeal on this point alone. There were equally important grounds concerning dd's education which seemed to be overlooked.

In addition, at stage one of the hearing the school stated that the new build at the school was like for like replacement for 5 existing unsuitable classrooms and therefore would not increase classroom space. I presented a copy of the plans (downloaded from the planning application) which clearly showed 7 new classrooms. The school conceded there were an additional 2 classrooms but reiterated that the area was the same!!!? I asked if the school had any measurements to support this – they didn't. The panel didn't question the school or test this in anyway – they just accepted the schools statement as fact. They didn't even look at the plans!

Please let me know if I have a point here? One bitter and stressed out mum!

If you feel the panel was unreasonable or misdirected itself then, as you say, you can take it further.

All I would say for now, though, is that some parents do make exaggerated claims at appeals and panels have to try to establish objectively what the situation is (and the same is true of claims made by the school/LEA). So, to some extent at least, the panel has to assess each party's credibility.

As you know, I am sure, staying with particular friends or a friendship group is never part of a school's over subscription criteria. In an oversubscribed system, there's no guarantee that friends can stay together. If you were saying that staying with friends is more important for your child than it is for the generality of children, because of anxiety issues, the panel may well have wanted to assess how hard you had tried to keep her with existing friends, by applying to some of all if the schools that they were likely to be going to.

I would not regard that as unreasonable but it's open to you to seek the EFA's opinion on the matter.

Sorry to hear that Bow. I am hoping to use this same reason in my daughters appeal. If you don't think the appeal was done right I would complain.

Have masses of sympathy for you OP, we are in exactly the same boat with our second stage meeting tomorrow, I am beyond stressed and will probably break down in tears at some point.

We (and many other parents) also felt that the first stage group meeting was unfair, despite many good parents questions. Even the LA chap I spoke to afterwards admitted he didn't think their presentation was strong!

I would complain, I don't imagine you have anything to lose by doing so.

If the new build is not open and won't be open in September it is irrelevant. And, to be honest, two new classrooms won't necessarily result in an increase in PAN. It is not enough to give an additional classroom per year.

You are correct that the appeal panel has to balance prejudice to the school against prejudice to your daughter. That means they have to assess the prejudice to your daughter. Since you are suggesting that your daughter needs to stay with her friends they need to understand how important that really is. If you have named a school which none of her friends will attend but ignored a school which several of her friends will attend it is not unreasonable for the panel to probe your reasoning.

A need to stay with friends is rarely grounds to win an appeal. It might have been grounds if the GP had said that, in his/her professional opinion, it was vital that your daughter attended the same school as her friends. But if the GP's letter simply confirmed that your daughter has anxiety issues it was unlikely to be enough to win your appeal.

You won't lose anything by going to the EFA. As you are unhappy I would encourage you to do so. But I suspect the EFA will not order a fresh appeal in this case.

Oh no, receiving official confirmation is like putting salt in a wound,I'm really sorry you have not won. I'm in a similar situation with a primary school appeal. In the meantime I am coaxing myself to open my mind and consider the allocated school without prejudice and to not be fixated on the one I can not have and to get rid the obsession that my son must attend only this school to succeed. It's not going very well !!

I don't have a lot of experience of these things but my gut reaction to your OP was:

• If one of your primary reasons for needing the school is because it's especially important to keep your DD with some of her existing school friends, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to ask what else you could/have done to achieve that and why you did list a school that woudln't achieve that when others would have done (i.e how important it really is to you)

• An extra classroom doesn't necessarily mean an extra class. MY DS's school is full to bursting, stationary cupboards have been turned into offices and small group teaching rooms, the library is a small partition in the corridor, the old ICT suite is being used as a classroom. There is a new build planned for this summer which will provide some office space, storage and a classroom but it won't be accommodating a new class.

Sorry to hear you have had such a disappointing tesult. My understanding from your post was that you are rejecting the offered school on the basis that your anxious dd will be alone and have no support network there from personal friends.
You have chosen to apoeal for your preferred school which will provide that for her. They are trying to establish why THIS particular school alone can provide that for her, and are trying to assess what lengths you have gone to ensure her needs are met. I.e. that she can be with an established group of friends. It seems reasonable to ask about other locations which may be suitable and whether you have considered those too?

This is an area where I feel patents are generally disadvantaged. It is do hard for parents to understand what strength their case may have and what may make it stronger or undermine it.

Appeals are complicated and the decision that a panel makes will have an effect on the child in question and the existing children at the school for up to 5 or 7 years. So we have to consider the case for the school as presented by the LA very carefully, just as we have to consider the case for the child very carefully.

Panels have to be thorough in their investigation of the situation so that they can make a firm decision. As parents are in a more vulnerable position, panels will often go out of their easy to ask questions which they feel may have a positive bearing on a child's case (although they're not allowed to lead parents -there is a fine line).

If the panel had asked the same question of you and your answer had been 'no but we've also submitted an appeal for that school' or 'she couldn't go there because x child goes there already and was involved in an incident which caused her anxiety to start with' or 'that school is close in straight line distance but due to the town layout the road distance is 3 times as long and there is no public transport from where we are', etc., you may well have been glad that a kind panel member asked the question and helped to make your case.

GP letters can be very woolly also and it isn't uncommon for a one off letter to be produced saying 'x visited me following an unsuccessful application to y school. S/he tells me that s/he is very anxious and that it will have a very bad effect on her if s/he can't go to y school.' Letters like this are telling a story of the situation as the parent/child sees it. A letter that says 'x had been seeing me on a fortnightly basis since 2013 due to social anxiety. I noted a small improvement when x was applying to secondary schools as s/he was hopeful of going to school with a, b, and c and felt that with them she could cope with the transition. Since learning of the outcome of the admissions process I have noted a marked and sustained increase in X's anxiety and I am very concerned that this outcome could have a very negative effect on X's mental health.' Would be much more compelling because it is giving a summary of care with a medical opinion.

Thank you so much for your comments.

PanelChair/prh47/others – I see your point and now understand the reasoning behind the panel’s questioning.

Our first and second choice schools were both likely to have dd’s friends admitted. Our third choice, the allocated school, is a much better match than the school suggested by the panel - apart from the friends issue. This suggested fourth school has a double intake and is huge (another reason why it’s not best suited to dd’s needs). Since opening, it’s always been under-subscribed and I knew that we would almost certainly be able to secure a place for dd there, if all else failed, even at this late stage – something we are now considering – it’s not full! When I spoke to the Admissions Authority some time ago, they confirmed that I would simply need to write in to request a change from the allocated school, assuming places were available – they are! I just wish the panel had explained the reason for their questioning! I was flustered by their tone and didn’t explain!

The GP letter confirmed long standing anxiety issues and also named the appeal school, saying it would benefit dd due to its pastoral influence and the support of friends.

This was only one aspect of the appeal. Looking at the reasons given for rejection, there seems to have been little, if any, consideration given to the other grounds e.g. that the appeal school is the only one with the right provision for gifted and talented (dd is on the G&T register and at SATS level 6 - lots of evidence was provided of university visits, Raising Aspirations Programme etc. at the appeal school). Some children will succeed at any school but will a child like dd be disadvantaged by not having access to the right gifted and talented provision? Yes, I believe most definitely!

The new build is complete and will be in full use by September. In the latest school letter the head reports that the school is ‘much better placed as a school than we ever have been with regard to facilities’. The picture painted is not one of a school bursting at the seams.

So I have a difficult choice – dd’s educational needs or her need to be with friends. The appeal school would have met both these needs and more.

Apologies for waffling on – this is my first ever post in any open forum and it’s really helped to get things off my chest.

To those who are going through the process – stay positive – parents do win at appeal and I truly wish you luck.

P.s. At the hearing the school representative said he was impressed with the letter dd had written in support of her appeal. He thought it showed great maturity – she liked that!

We lost our appeal today as well.

Idespair I'm really sorry to hear that, you must be devastated,the notion that we have a choice in choosing a school for our child is a farce.

New classrooms are built to much smaller sizes now.A school might have two old rooms replaced by 3 new ones but they don't hold more children.

Have you looked at the OfSTED website Datadashboard for the schools? If not, click on the tab that says Progress when you find the school. It is a good measure of what a school does to ensure all of their students make good or better progress.

imho only talented really matters in terms of specialist provision.

All schools can cater for Gifted students, some better than others but a gifted child will do well regardless in most cases. The small amount (often v. v. minimal) of extra G&T stuff with have almost no effect. For example there is a school around here that prides itself on it's G&T reputation - the extra provision is essentially this:

• 1 extra trip per year to a museum/lecture/uni
• An extra class in Year 9 maths that works to GCSE level (most schools work to this level anyway in top sets)
• a speaker from a university once a year - who talks to all Year 11-13 plus the G&T lot

I do agree that talented students need to go to specialist schools if possible e.g. to access a much wider and more high quality arts provision.

I'd select either the 3rd or 4th school based on the emotional needs of your DD.

I would go and look at 3rd and 4th schools. Ask for appointment with member of Leadership Team or Head. Ask to be shown round the school, look at what children are doing, how happy they seem, range of extra curricular activities, how they support students and stretch them academically. Any decent school will make time for a concerned parent and welcome this kind of conversation and be very open. If not there is a problem.

mumofthemonsters808 the notion that we have a choice in choosing a school for our child is a farce. Exactly. It would have been better if we had just been told last Oct that's it, there are no other places for your child than the massively underperforming/undersubscribed (catchment) school and we would at least have been able to make decisions on this basis rather than dangle unattainable carrots IYSWIM

the notion that we have a choice in choosing a school for our child is a farce

Last year 86.7% of parents got their first preference, 96.5% got one of their first three preferences and 97.8% received an offer from one of their preferences. These figures have all been rising for several years.

The picture varies across the country. In London, where there is a lot of pressure on school place, only 71.1% got their first preference (and in parts of London it was lower than that - 56.7% in Hammersmith and Fulham). At the other end of the scale, 94.6% of parents in the North East got their first preference.

The extent to which you can choose depends on the availability of places and how realistic you are in your choices.