Appeals question....

[LucasNorthCanSpookMeAnytime]

The school we're appealing to has gone over PAN in the past and I want to check their results, to see how it affected the school. But what results do I look at? If the over-PAN year was, for example, Y7 in 2009 then do I need to look at when those pupils would have reached Y11 (in 2013) and look at their GCSE results? Or would you look at the results of the 2009 Y11s? Not sure if I'm making sense here! I suppose what I'm asking is whether going over PAN only affects that particular year group or the rest of the school.

Although I doubt I will be able to find any of this info out anyway, as the admission authority is refusing to answer me

I wouldn't worry too much about results. They will be talking about overcrowding in the corridors, lack of equipment, etc. You will be saying that they've been over PAN in the past and they've obviously coped.

If the admission authority doesn't answer all your questions make sure you tell the appeal panel.

Just to add, I would be very surprised if they argued that going over PAN affects their results. I have never seen that argument put forward for any school. And there are so many variables affecting results that it is impossible to prove anything anyway.

I thought the idea was that if results were consistently good then it must mean they're coping but what you say makes complete sense (as always!) If not results, then how else can I show that they've coped ok? Overcrowding hasn't been mentioned if Ofsted, which I'll bring up but I'm not sure how else I can demonstrate it.

The Admission Authority bod who refused to answer questions will be in the hearing (school is an academy). So I'm nervous of pointing that out whilst they're in the room!

If they talk about overcrowding in the corridors ask them how many reportable accidents they have had due to overcrowding. The answer is almost certainly none. For everything else they bring up, just point to the fact that they have been over PAN previously and the sky didn't fall in.

Don't be intimidated. You will not get any time alone with the panel. If you don't bring it up in the hearing it will be very difficult to bring it up later. If they are not answering your questions the admission authority is in breach of Appeals Code paragraph 2.8 which requires them to comply with reasonable requests for information. The appeal panel will not be impressed. It won't win your case for you but it will make them more inclined to give you the benefit of any doubt.

I was being a little facetious (obviously) when saying that the sky didn't fall in. I would just ask innocently, "So, if you don't have enough computers (or whatever), how did you cope last year when you had 6 pupils more than PAN?" The answer may be that they didn't cope very well but they certainly coped somehow so they should be able to cope again.

Thabnks, prh. I actually quoted that section at them but they still refused to answer!

Those answers are brilliant. A massive glass of virtual for that man!

wow this will help me tmrw appeals because i got prints of last few years they gone over pan so will use it looking bit confident now

I would ask in writing for the information that you want. Unless you are asking for something outrageous then the school has to answer the question. I accept that they may not have the answer to hand but just saying no is not an acceptable response.
Ask for it by email and get an email response saying no, so that you can put it in front of the appeal panel as them obstructing you from being able to construct an appropriate case at appeal.
You will not find any info from Ofsted now in that they are highly unlikely to comment on the buildings now unless they are literally falling down.

Thanks, admission.

I do have copies of emails of me asking and them saying no but how/when do I bring this up? Do I say at the start 'I'd like it noted that I haven't been able to prepare properly because...' etc. The school did answer a lot of my questions, just not this particular one - so it sounds a bit overly dramatic to say they've hindered my preparation. What would you say?

What is the question they are refusing to answer? Are they giving any reason for their refusal or just simply saying no?

Assuming you haven't got an answer by the time of the hearing I would put it at the start of your case. Even if it hasn't been a huge hindrance it potentially shows the school acting unreasonably which helps you.

It was a simply question about PAN and they said they can't answer anymore until the hearing itself - no specific reason was given but the implication was that I've already bothered them too much Well yes, I've only bothered them because they didn't answer that bit in the first place!

Sounds like you should be bothering them a bit more but in writing!

Prh47bridge - just thought I'd say at my appeal last year the academy I appealed to said they believe the schools results had suffered because they had too many students, openly admitted no problems with the corridors etc
It was actually mentioned in my decision letter

Good luck with your appeal

Interesting. I've not come across a school making that argument before and I find it hard to see how they can justify it.

The appeal panel shouldn't simply accept an argument that the school believes the results had suffered. It isn't about what the school "believes". It is about what they can demonstrate. The panel should expect the school to show the problems having extra pupils has caused that has led to results suffering, and that brings us back to lack of equipment, etc.

As ever, I agree with prh47bridge.

To the extent that it exists at all, the relationship between pupil numbers and academic results us a highly complex one. The school should not be claiming that exam results go down as pupil numbers go up, unless it has clear evidence to support this, which seems improbable. But by the same token, parents at appeal are not well placed to argue that the school's academic results are unaffected by going over PAN - it's impossible to know what the results might have been if those additional pupils hadn't been there. Far better to try to demolish the school's claims about overcrowded corridors (have there been any reportable accidents?), shortage of space in the lunch hall (have any pupils had to go without?) and so on.

It is difficult to prove either way but I think for an appeal panel to be making that judgement and putting it in the letter as a specific reason for not allowing the appeal would have to have strong evidence to support it.

I am afraid that I suspect that the panel in this case accepted the statement at face value from the school. In that case the panel were at fault and I would start to ask some questions about the independence of the panel.

Exactly, admission. To prove a causal link (not just a correlation) between pupil numbers and exam results would take a sophisticated statistical analysis to control for other, extraneous factors and I very much doubt that the school offered such an analysis to the panel. It does sound very much as if the school made an assertion and the panel accepted it without much further question.

Just had a thought - should I write to the appeals clerk now, saying that the admission authority is refusing to answer my questions, or shall I just wait and bring it up at the hearing?

bumpity-bump?

Sorry - missed this question yesterday. You should bring it up in the hearing. If it were me it would be the first thing I would say when the panel asked me to present my case. Take written evidence of their refusal to answer the question and give that to the panel.

Thank you, prh. No worries about missing the question - you guys have rather a busy time at the moment, I'm sure!