Secondary school choice - am I wrong not to be making a more active decision?

[redskyatnight]

I am slightly musing aloud here really but welcome any words of wisdom.

DS is in Y5, so our thoughts are inevitably turning towards secondary school applications.
We live in a town where people tend to go to their catchment secondary - in fact admissions criteria mean it would be nigh on impossible for us to get into any other state secondary in our town (excluding the 2 "failing" schools, which are the wrong end of town for us anyway).

Our catchment secondary is best described as "bog standard" - it has a very mixed intake and I've heard both good and bad things about it from parents with children there. Most seem to think it is "perfectly fine" without raving about it (though tbh that is a description also levelled at the DC's current junior school which has been - "perfectly fine"!). It is a fairly modern school and does have (to my mind anyway) amazing facilities. Anyway, DH and I had also just assumed that DS (along with 95% of his current school) would go there.

However, I'm starting to worry (and I accept that this is largely due to influences from my extended family) that this is too passive a decision.

We live on the edge of a grammar area so there are some parents angling for grammar places (many of whom will have put their children into private junior or have been heavily tutoring) - I had discounted this as it would mean an hour on the bus, early starts and long days for DS (plus he obviously may not get in!). Or we could move but that feels like big step, mean longer commute for me and disruption for DC.

My extended family are very pro-private education and my brother's children go to a private school. I hear a lot about how wonderful the school is (and a lot of criticism - both unspoken and thinly hidden- about how state schools evidently aren't). However, again the private school would mean an hour on a bus (and he might not get in). We fall into the "we could just about afford it if we drove a battered old car and had no holidays" camp, but our jobs are both uncertain, plus we would definitely both have to work full time to afford it (and I was rather thinking that my going part time to be about more would be more beneficial).

DS is above average ability but not stellar (his predicted levels for the end of Year 5 are 5c in maths and reading and 4b in writing). He has a tendency to do the bare minimum and I do wonder if a more academic environment might push him more.

But basically, I am starting to dither under pressure that the results at the bog-standard comp (looking only at high achievers) are not a patch on those at the grammar or private school and would I be letting my DC down by simply taking the passive option?

Are his predicted grades grammar material? DD was predicted high Level 5s for her Year 6 SATs and passed the 11plus by the skin of her teeth.

She now goes to a bog standard comp and is very happy. She's in the top sets and I think there's a lot to be said for being at the top of a school rather than feeling like you're at the bottom. Where I'm sure she'd have been if she'd gone to the grammar.

Yes the results for the top achieving kids at her comp aren't as good as at the grammar but they're never going to be. There's still a fairly big difference between (the average) top of the year group in a comp and the kids at a grammar.

Kids from DD's comp do get good results and go to uni inc a few who go to Oxbridge. DD is on course for As in her GCSEs in most subjects.

I certainly wouldn't make my life financially hard by putting a child into private school unless the only alternative was awful.

I come from an all comp area with good schools.

I think money saved by going private can buy an awful lot of tutoring if needed. It can also buy enriching experiences such as holiday to France whilst learning French etc.

I think quality of life for the child by being 15mins from the school rather than an hour away should be a big consideration. Also makes it much easier as parents to get to after school events such as shows, parents evenings, etc.

I'm with Viva and Teen on this.
Mine go to a 'perfectly fine' comp (well now an academy but nothing has changed). DD1 is now in Year 12 and was keen to stay in the same school. DD2 has also selected to stay where she is for sixth form next year.
Don't make life difficult for yourself unless you have to!

There's a lot to be said for going to the local school (with amazing facilities) with friends.

DD2 might well have passed the 11+, but very much wanted to follow DD1 and her DFs to the local secondary (Comp/academy Good/Satisfactory/SM/Good in DD1's time there, so I'm an utter cynic about the idea of a "Good" school)

She is massively happier being in top sets, being able to get into sports teams etc. Many grammar school pupils have been crammed to L6 and played serious hockey and netball at prep school so as to avoid fee paying secondary. It's not a level playing field for pupils from nice small rural primaries.

If your local school seems fine, I wouldn't angst about it. Is travelling for 2 hours a day really worth it for any school (maybe for a something exceptional like a stage school) but not for a school that does exactly the same subjects as a school right on your doorstep? He really could be doing something way more interesting than sitting on a bus in those 2 hours.

But basically, I am starting to dither under pressure that the results at the bog-standard comp (looking only at high achievers) are not a patch on those at the grammar or private school and would I be letting my DC down by simply taking the passive option?

Don't forget that around 30% of primary leavers count as 'higher ability' - that must encompass quite a wide ability range; certainly wider than the grammar school which takes between the top 5 - 20% dependent on how selective it is. Added to that, if going to the grammar school is a conscious opt-in decision, then only children from more aspirational families will be attending. Your DS is still young, you are likely to find he is motivated to do more as he matures, especially if he has a particular ambition, and coming from a supportive home really does make a difference.

redsky what are the stats for the high achievers?

I think I would choose your local school. However if he gets a stack of A* and As at GCSE I would consider a change for 6th form. Sometimes a grammar or independent can be good if he needs to work with like minded pupils for A levels and University. If he is not a worker, this might need to change wherever he goes!

The stat that "bothers" me is that high achievers average a B at GCSE. Good points have been made here about grammar/private schools taking an even higher range of higher, but was still surprised this wasn't higher (IIRC getting a Grade B at GCSE from a Level 5 in KS2 is only "expected" progress, and some of those higher achievers must be starting at more than a mid Level 5. But then again the value add is really high - 1030ish so maybe my reading of stats is completely wrong!)

Thanks for the thoughts, I have to admit that I do agree with those who say that 15 minutes walk versus hour on the bus has got to be good!

But some of those level 5s will be getting A averages! Their results are dragged down by those who presumably scraped 5s going a bit 'teenagery' and only managing C averages.

High VA score could well be due to very good work with middle and low achievers though rather than high achievers.

At the end of the day it's your kid's results that count, not averages for the rest of the level 5 kids or the VA score.

Do you mean the high achievers had a value added score of 1030? That is good and means they have made good progress. High achievers encompasses level 5c at end of ks2 up to level 6. There will be a higher proportion of level 6s at grammar so they should get higher gcses. I was average in a grammar and I found it a shock and demotivating having thought of myself as bright at primary.

I realise some of the high achievers will be averaging As - that's the point that bothers me - that it means an equal number of high achievers will be averaging Cs to compensate! Accept that the odd child will have peaked in KS2 or decide not to bother in their teenage years, but just seems a bit low. I may well be reading too much into it ... (actually maybe I should go off and look at "similar" schools for a comparison).

value add for high achievers is 1030, yes. It's actually even higher for lower and medium achievers. Its high value add is one of the school's "marketing" points!

Actually there won't be any official L6s in the figures until the GCSE results for 2017, older DCs couldn't sit a L6 paper.
Given many primary schools only get L6s by using after school booster classes they are going to be some who do not continue to work that hard at secondary and who do not make the A/A* that will be expected of them.

I'm a bit puzzled at value add for high achievers being 1030 but only a B average. How many high achievers are there? And,as a counter balance, how do the low achievers do? I think that's an interesting measure of a comprehensive school.

Another question to ask is where kids go on to from the school...does it look as if the school/the kids have high aspirations?

An hour is OK if the journey is by a school bus or an ordinary bus that goes more or less point-to-point - rural children do that as routine, bus friendships can be good, and going your homework on the bus is a fine tradition.

But if the journey is unreliable or complicated, then it's not so good.

I'm puzzled too martorana - maybe all the high achievers are at the lower end? But that seems unlikely.

Approx half the children at the secondary school come from the DC's current primary and it is very non-pushy (possibly too much so) and doesn't spend all year on SATS preparation (in fact I did wonder if the value add was so high because these children underachieved at primary!)

The profile of the children (well last year's GCSE cohort, but think this is fairly representative) is 20% low achievers, 50% middle, 30% higher - which IIRC is broadly in line with national averages. Low achievers average an E at GCSE but a C- when all subjects taken into consideration. Middle achievers average a C. Their headline 5 GCSEs at A*-C including English and Maths averages around 61%.

The bus journey (private or grammar) is a school bus which goes to pretty much straight outside school. However the bus stop is a couple of miles away from us - which practically is going to mean we have to drop him off and pick him up every day (aarrgh, not good).

The school generally gets the odd child into Oxbridge, some into RG universities and others into non-RG universities - however there is a fair bit of movement at 6th form stage so not thinking about that yet!

I think you need to go in and talk to someone at the school about this. Make an appointment with the ahead of KS3. Oh, and while you're there, as for a list of actual GCSE results- that way you can see how they get on with particular subjects. And you will be able to see if it looks as if a couple of kids going off the rails trashed the averages,nor whether the results are overall mediocre.

I would talk to parents at the bog standard secondary and see what they think. Especially talk to parents of kids who seem similar to yours; do the parents like what the school provides. I trust insights like that far more than value added statistics.

"I trust insights like that far more than value added statistics."

I don't. People have to justify their decisions to themselves and others, and nobody is ever dispassionate about the schools their children attend. Listen to what other parents say, obviously. But use large pinches of salt.

I agree with martorana get the actual results, subject by subject. The high achievers should be getting a decent percenage of A*s and As in all academic subjects. If they are, then no worries, if they're not it will indicate a problem.

Why is it unlikely that more of the high achievers are at the lower end if some kids in the area are being creamed off to grammar and private?

The grammar is an hour away by bus? So an hour each way every school day? That's around 2000 hours (or around 300 school days - about a year and a half!) over five years.

There's a lot of value in staying local.

What sort of % go to the grammar school from your area?

There aren't loads of children being creamed off to grammar or private from this area - at least the parents that are considering either are generally already in private school (our 2 local private schools make their selling point that they get all their children into their choice of local private or grammar) so their children are not doing KS2 SATs and not influencing value add stats at comp! There might be 1 or 2 children from DS's school (out of year group of 120). It really is the norm to just go to the catchment secondary. If we made the move we would be unusual!

The subject by subject results are on the school website - tbh I have no idea what I am looking for...