Would you send a complaint to school about unfair whole class punishment?

[TittyNotSusan]

I'm a regular but have NC.

DD is in Y7. She has never missed a homework all year, and not lost any behaviour points or got a detention.

She has a new science teacher who took over at Feb half term, and on the second week a piece of equipment got broken. No one knows who did it, but I am very confident it wasn't DD. She was sitting right at the front all lesson. Teacher has imposed a full class detention every lunchtime until someone owns up. There is no end date to this as far as the kids know. The first one was today.

According to DD, one girl had a note from her dad to say he refused for her to do the detention, and so she was excused it. Today lots of other kids were saying they will bring a note in tomorrow and DD wants me to write one for her.

I normally try to support teachers wherever possible, but I think in this case the teacher has made a poor decision and backed herself into a corner. I am very unhappy about DD having detention every single lunchtime for an indefinite period of time.

Do these whole class punishments ever result in a culprit owning up? I remember them from when I was at school and they always ended with the teacher having to back down and lose face.

I don't particularly want to get rid of this teacher, but I don't see how she can continue to teach this class. If she backs down - which she should because she was wrong - then she loses all respect from the class. If she doesn't back down, she will still lose the respect of the class. How do you suggest she extricates herself? Or do you think it is acceptable that the indefinite lunchtime detentions should continue? This isn't about giving the wrong kid a detention, this is about giving 29 wrong kids a detention.

I sincerely hope that every parent in this class complains and withdraws their child from the detention - except the parents of the guilty child obviously, but we can be pretty sure that bit isn't going to happen.

I'm not a teacher, and I am on the side of teachers 99% of the time because I have many friends who are teachers. I know what pressure they are under. It doesn't excuse error on this scale and it doesn't excuse the unwarranted punishment of the innocent majority.

It's really really not the heinous crime you're making it out to be, and I would do exactly what noblegiraffe suggested. I have done similar. Things improved.

And you did actually say 'if she does something like this then she shouldn't be teaching'.

OK, let's be charitable then and assume this is the first time she's done this.

If she does it a second time then she shouldn't be teaching.

I'm not sure about Giraffe's suggestion, it involves children telling on each other and that could cause all kind of problems within the class. There are two potential outcomes:

1. Someone drops the guilty child in it. Then we get the denials from the guilty child - and guilt cannot be proved here - and the whole class knows that someone has 'dobbed them in'. There will be suspicions and finger pointing.

2. No-one says anything and the situation continues unresolved.

I'd say fair enough to not doing any more practicals for a while though.

OK - teacher made mistake and hopefully she'll have some feedback from her Head of Dept or similar about avoiding such in the future but, seriously, some of the suggestions about forcing a change of teacher for the class as students will have lost all respect/ are unable to work for that teacher again are very wide of the mark. Students are much more resilient at dealing with such upsets and errors and, in my experience, will be quickly over it within a few weeks and all will be fine.

This sort of bad punishment has happened at my dc's school a few times. I always write an email to 'complain' and it ALWAYS turns out that it is new member of staff who is not aware of the sanction policy. The school apologise and say they will get it sorted.
It's entirely the school's fault for not doing a proper induction process for new members of staff in the first place.

I'd contact the head of dept/year, but I'd do it in the spirit of letting them know what's happening and that you believe it is inappropriate and not following the school's own behaviour/sanctions policy, rather than requesting that your daughter be excused. I think the teacher's manager needs to be aware of what's happening, so that he or she can help her find a way to get out the mess she's created.

Good points from bigbuttons and Amber - management needs to be involved and definitely have a look at induction too. An apology from the school rather than from the teacher might smooth the ruffled feathers.

However, steview, resilient as students are, once a teacher gets a reputation for not treating them fairly that may well stick. My DD1's favourite teachers at her school are the ones she describes as 'strict but fair'. It's important in order to maintain trust.

We had this scenario with Y6 DD's class i.e. young teacher and a similar collective punishment that would endure until a child confessed. I talked (privately) to Teacher about it and they wouldn't be swayed, or rather I think they weren't confident enough to deliver their very own mea culpa.

I'm surprised reason wasn't sufficient to avoid using this strategy, but is there much pragmatic behaviour management in teacher training? If not then why not?

I see where you are coming from, pointythings, but in my experience reputations of teachers are built over a period of time and not one off events. I'm certainly not defending the whole class sanction but wanting to downplay the impact that this single incident may have on the class.

I don't understand how the teacher could have fucked this up so badly tbh.

I understand the school should have given her a proper induction and told her the sanctions policy etc.

But FGS, isn't it just common sense to not do something as stupid as this? Is this not covered in teacher training courses? How is it even possible to make a mistake like this? I'm slightly bewildered. At 21 years old I would have known, without any teacher training at all, that this is not an appropriate course of action. How can a woman with a degree and a certificate that proves she is capable of teaching, not know this? I'm genuinely mystified.

My thoughts exactly, Basil.

Looks like the discussion backed up my views today. I haven't been back on the thread because I've been out all day, but I thought I'd pop back and give an update.

Firstly she isn't a young teacher. I have no idea if she's newly qualified or not, but DD described her as "quite old - about your age" (thanks DD. I'm 40). She's also a Dr.

She's come across to cover maternity leave from the upper school (the school is split across two sites Y7/8 and Y9/10/11. I don't think she's new to the school but I think she is new to Y7.

Last night I wrote an email to the HOY pointing out my two main concerns - 1. She's not following the school behaviour policy and 2. She's alienating the class and this will affect their learning. I asked HOY to confirm if she was acting with the backing of school management and governors. I asked her to explain how they plan to rebuild trust between teacher and students and I also asked her to explain how the situation will be resolved if no one owns up.

I also sent DD with a note for the teacher which was friendly and wished her luck with the situation, but that I wasn't happy for DD to attend all week, as she has other music commitments at lunchtimes and I felt she needed time to eat her lunch and relax.

I didn't get a reply to my email at all, but I think it has been noted, no doubt alongside other emails from other parents.

DD informed me that she didn't go to the detention today, because they were doing the sport relief mile before lunch and her and her friends didn't get changed in time. She didn't end up having to give her the note. Only 10 of the class turned up for detention. When they got there the teacher gave them all a lolly, and said it wouldn't be on again. I have no idea if there will be any consequences for the remaining 20 kids who just didn't go, but DD doesn't think so.

It seems that the head of year and the teacher have addressed every point in my email, so I'm pleased about that, but I just can't think what was going through the teacher's head to impose this in the first place. She has totally lost the respect of the students. It remains to be seen whether she can repair it.

I said to DD today that it seems like she is doing her best in a bad situation, and that maybe she'll turn out to be a good teacher after all. DD's response was "No way. She's rubbish and I hate her". This is not like my DD at all, so clearly feelings are still running high in the class.

unfortunately we won't be able to do any practicals until they do own up

Isnt that still punishing the whole class only this time it is their education which is being damaged rather than their free time.

I agree AskBasil also wasnt she a school student herself at some point so should know first hand that these types of punishments dont work (unless of course if she was the class grass!)

Actually she did threaten to put a stop to all practicals for the remainder of the term until someone owned up. I queried this in my email to the HOY. I don't know if this threat has been withdrawn but I will be making my views VERY clear if they don't do practicals for the remainder of the year.

I don't believe it is in her power to threaten to remove practical work from the curriculum for the whole class. Would a PE or Food Tech teacher make this threat?

I suspect there's the kind of empty threat teaching going on here that I would be ashamed to do as a parent even though I do it all the time!

When they got there the teacher gave them all a lolly

Oh dear, that does not bode well. That is also a sign of a teacher who has lost it. She is now trying to curry favour.

DD had a teacher like this who could not control the class and would try to buy good behaviour with sweets. It was pathetic and embarrassing for all involved. It didnt end well as this teacher finally went postal, effing and blinding at the class.

Worry, you cut the end off that quote which was 'or until they can be trusted again'.

You can't run practicals with a class that you don't trust to not piss about, break equipment and then not own up to it. These things have to be risk-assessed.

I couldn't be a science teacher.

As for 'what was she thinking?' Well, I bet every parent knows the temptation of an overblown threat to bin the favourite toy, empty the messy bedroom, destroy the phone, turn the car around right now and go home.
When you are faced with some broken equipment, a guilty-looking but obstinate class, the knowledge that you need to know who did it, what do you do? In that split second when the class are looking at you thinking 'yeah miss, what are you going to do about it??'. Don't be too harsh on the teacher, we've all said stupid stuff in the heat of the moment.

With the rest of the sentence I think it is still an unacceptable threat to make. It is alleging the whole class is untrustworthy and has to 'earn' back trust. Again, whole class punishment.

Yes but isn't that what teacher training college teaches you not to do noblegiraffe?
If not, shouldn't it? It seems a bit of an oversight. This sort of situation must happen quite a lot and it's fairly basic that you need effective strategies to deal with it.

Oh God, I can't bear this thread any more. OP it sounds like you've dealt with this fine - the school are following up, the teacher has backed down and I'm sure it will all blow over.

But there are way too many people on this thread pontificating about things they know nothing about and situations they have never had to face. Get up in front of a class and you'll know what it's like. You might then be a little more forgiving.

Oh and teacher training is 9 months or less. There's barely time to draw breath, let alone discuss the possible ramifications of every behaviour strategy. It's all objectives and criteria these days .

Listen to noblegiraffe - she knows what she's talking about!

Worry, you can't run a practical with a class you don't trust not to piss around. It's a science lab with fire and chemicals and stuff. Safety has to be a consideration. The class is untrustworthy at the moment as when that class was doing a practical, equipment was broken and there is yet to be an explanation as to who did it and how it happened.

Askbasil, teacher training college doesn't teach you what to do in every situation that comes up, you have to think on your feet. What would you do if the class was persistently humming at you but you couldn't tell who it was? Or if a pile of textbooks was thrown out the window when your back was turned? Or if you pulled your board down to find an obscene picture drawn on it? You might very well lose the ability to think rationally if you have been pushed hard enough. From what I remember of my PGCE, no, they didn't cover those scenarios, just a vague warning that whole-class punishments really aren't a good idea.

See?

That's what I'm saying.

Teacher training clearly isn't very good.

But having said that, this teacher wasn't a newby anyway. She is an experienced one, so you'd expect her not to make such a balls up. Maybe she had a hangover or had found out someone had died or something. Who knows.

I wonder if they'll ever find out who dunnit?

ng - but do they give you any strategies at all?

Also, what does she do now? Will she ever find out who did it, and if so how, and what would she have to do about it if she did?

It is a simple risk assessment. You cannot do a practical where there are students who mess around with the equipment in a potentially unsafe way. You would be failing in your duty of care. I would be going for the statements from everyone thing. Someone invariably blabs IME, and then you can remove the culprit from practical lessons, and everyone else can get on and have fun learn. Children like practicals. They won't want to miss them, and generally they know to place the blame for missed practicals with the dishonest culprit rather than the teacher.