Is it harder to get into a selective state school or selective independent school?

[FiveHoursSleep]

I'm guessing it depends on the area and schools?
In our area, Middlesex, the kids who went private are the ones who didn't manage to get a place in the selective state schools in the Sout West Consortium , QE boys and Henrietta Barnett.
The girls who went private ended up in schools like Goldophin and North London Collegiate but when reading posts on here it looks like the independant exams are much more complicated than the state ones.
Is there just more competition for State places as you don't have to pay?

this kind of information should be transparent ...especially if you are paying for the school

Surely the extra-curricular stuff does make a difference to the private schools. Not saying that it would make up for truly poor academic performance but I bet that a dc who got 65% in the exams but was an amazingly good sports player or gifted musician might well pip someone at 70% who doesn't have that to offer.

does Tiffin cull at sixth form out of interest?

I don't know dellon. I know that the school I mentioned as being the subject of the 11+ thread denies it, but there were enough angry parents on the thread for it to be clear that wasn't true.

I know you were comparing it the other way round, but I guess my point was simply that you can never be quite sure what lies behind those amazing results claimed by any school.

We have one semi selective state school in our area & way harder than most of the Indies & at least as difficult as the others.

Our local comp has a few places for out-of-catchment children - chosen based on an exam
I'd be interested to know what school that is as I was not aware that "comps" were allowed to use exams

OP
in the big scheme of things, even the most "selective" fee paying school in the world will open its doors to a pupil whose family have the right amount of money / connections (Eton were never going to say no to Harry were they ...)

a state selective school of the academic variety just goes on its exam results

religious selective schools bring out the crassest hypocrisy in parents
as at primary level, kids do not yet know their own mind anyway

It depends what you mean by "harder to get into" - Eton reject many of the brightest in favour of the less bright who in their view may bring some other desired extras to the table whereas the superselective grammars will take only the brightest by rank (brightest according to their tests anyway) Eton quote:

"There are roughly a thousand applicants for 250 places each year, and each boy sits an entrance exam at the age of 11 as well as Common Entrance at 13. A third of those boys who finish in the top 100 in the school’s exam at the age of 11 will not be offered a place because, as the headmaster, Tony Little, says: “We are not just looking for bright boys.”"

in other words, "we can exercise our discretion on selection as we see fit because we are private and not state"

There are roughly a thousand applicants for 250 places each year
but of course each of those pupils has applied for around four schools so in fact the number of applicants and places is pretty equal

He probably meant blond! Sorry couldn't resist cross posting...

Dellon. interesting question as pupils in these state superselectives will be as bright if not brighter. Style of teaching that encourages more practice in thinking laterally and discussion? Pupil not choosing those universities in the state superselectives? Choice of subject increasing or decreasing chances?

Quite a few selective independents who get excellent A level results don't achieve the same level of entrance despite encouraging it so similar to the state selectives.
I think some schools like Westminster, KCS, MCS do well out a second very selective intake at sixth form rather than it being due to culling

Don't really agree Talking as they are already a carefully selected bunch of applicants since most only apply if head fully supports the application and thinks boy has a fair chance (and head's report matters a lot) and secondly suspect nearly all, except some of those who also apply for Westminster, have Eton as first choice so much less likely to be applicants who just "have a go" (and registration fees approaching £300)

You could use the same argument for the superselective grammars like Tiffin who have candidates who apply from miles around who are also applying for all the Bucks grammars and many of whom may be just having a go since it's free to apply

summerends - all the schools you mention and likes of Winchester do make a big deal about going way beyond the curriculum (which Oxbridge likes) and doing individual research projects in sixth form, as well as having another highly selective and sizeable intake at sixth form, and I wonder if that also has something to do with it.

Also the proportion of very bright international students are competing for places in some of these schools which in turn may up Oxbridge / Ivy League entrance percentages.

Eton and Winchester don't have very many at all coming into the sixth form so can't just be that.

this is absolutely the case summerends.

to your last but one comment on international students

certainly know got into westminster but not tiffin. pre test westminster same year as tiffin. Lots of LEH and Hampton but not tiffin boys or girls.

Plenty of schools round our way that count as comprehensives, but the only way to get a place is to live with 300m, have a sibling already there, or score in the top 5% in a test of academic aptitude.

• within

really?

didn't know comps had academic selection tests thought it was only grammars...or did you mean some of those?

I'm in the same area as ThreeBee and yes they are generally called comprehensives despite selecting 25% by academic ability and 10% on music in the case of our nearest.

The private schools locally used to be superior (when I was at school) - if you passed to get into one of the private schools, you were thought of as the brightest of the bright. One of my colleagues attended one of the best private schools in the area and was told from the age of 11 that for the rest of their lives, whenever they walked into a room, they could be confident they were the brightest person there .

We are lucky to have exceptional grammar schools locally too - and I think the children who would perhaps have gone private, with the economic downturn, are opting for the state grammars. That means the state grammar results have gone up, and the private schools have had to fill their places with slightly less able children. So the grammar school results have continued to go up, and the private schools are struggling to match that. State grammar now becoming the preferred choice regardless of finances - so definitely harder to get into state than private where we are.

I think the state schools are MORE academically selecti

And don't forget there's a lot of movement at sixth form. So boys at QE Barnet might easily move to St Albans and St Albans boys might easily move into the state sector. So it's all very confusing as to which school has groomed its pupils for the most glory.

The ISI reports often state the average (or a range of) MidYis scores on entry. Eton's is remarkably low but that probably means it's a superb school as its boys often go on to be world king, or some such.

I think Eton boys going on to be world kings has more to do with them being born world princes in the first place than what they do in the five years at Eton...it just happens to attract that sort. Cameron was superbly placed (money wise and status wise and married well) to begin with and didn't do remarkable things at Eton it seems to make him stand out as most likely to be PM one day.