Buckinghamshire Grammars vs Hertfordshire

[sralways]

Hi there

My daughter is currently in Year 2, and we've started to explore various options regarding her secondary education. We currently live in Hertfordhsire,our local comprehensive school doesnt seem to be that great, results wise, and we are looking to move house anyways, so makes sense to move into an area with good schools.

My question is if we move westwards, still within Hertforshire, maybe Rickmansworth or Chorleywood, can we apply to the Buckinghamshire grammar schools and to the South West Herts Consortium?

As a back up we'd like to move close enough to an outstanding non selective school in case our daughter doesnt make the cut for grammar schools, looking at that sort of area. We are also looking at Stanmore/Harrow areas..Any suggestions of areas/schools?
Any advice wouls be much appreciated.

Thanks
a worried mum.

To get a 'flavour' of what to expect at 11+ you need to visit the 11+ forum elevenplusexams.co.uk - be scared! Families who are on the borders of Herts & Bucks can select whatever schools they want. The problem is that Bucks & SW Herts run different kinds of tests and so you would be looking forward to a stressful exam prepping regime - at least a year. Don't be fooled - everyone does it. Also SW Herts kids sit the tests regardless due to selecting by band.

I'd recommend that you look at the distance criterion for St Clement Danes in Chorleywood - an outstanding school which has a generous distance allocation, although be aware that there are 'black spots' in Chorleywood which is why a new free school has just started. Generally most of the SW Herts schools are good-excellent, there is reasonable provision with school buses (which you have to pay for). With 3-4 years to decide you have time to consider what's best - but most schools are academies and could easily change their admission rules in this time frame. All SW Herts schools are feeling the baby boom effect from London and having to expand to take on bigger intakes. Quite a few schools have priority areas by post-code which could change. All the schools have a sibling criterion so you will see that 25-33% intake in any given year will be siblings.

To get into the super selectives such as Parmiters and the Grammars your DC really needs to be L3 at end of Y2 and L6 at Y6, bear in mind that the tests are now at the beginning of Y6 when most DCs won't have covered the full KS2 curriculum in maths.

sralways I would say don't be hung up on results, you're interested in your child, not anyone else's. Several friends' children went to Longdean School, achieved grade A/A* A levels and went on to Russell Group Universities. Another friend's son went to Parmiters and wasn't allowed into year 13 because his AS results weren't good enough.

Totally agree with everything Babelange said.

You definitely do not need to be level 6 to get into a Bucks Grammar! Very many are level 5 but very few are level 4.

If you move into Bucks you can check the catchment areas on the Bucks CC web site. You would be looking at Dr Challoners High School which is actually at a Little Chalfont. You could also ask Bucks CC how many students from Chorleywood get into Dr Challoners High if you decide to live in Chorleywood. Generally the advice in Bucks is that if you want a specific school, live in the catchment area. You also need to be aware as to whether St Clement Danes takes anyone from Bucks. This may affect where you live.

If you move to Bucks you need to decide if you are happy with your local secondary modern school. Some are better than others and you may not be happy with a secondary modern at all. At least 30% get grammar school places in this area of the county but the Bucks 11+ is not based on the national curriculum. It is verbal reasoning and numerical reasoning. Ability to work at speed, a super vocabulary, a liking for puzzles and numbers and be working at a high level might ensure success but there are plenty of children with level 5s in the secondary schools!

Thank you all, appreciate all your advice..

Perhaps Bucks would offer more options for relocating! A DF has DCs at St C D's and they have done exceptionally well academically - I recall her mentioning provision for Bucks/Herts borders children as depending on the county boundary a Herts child could be closest to a Bucks school and vice versa. But it does make me feel a bit queasy even contemplating getting my head around 2 different test types.

In Herts you have 4 choices of secondary schools andbut in other areas eg. London you have 6 - there are certainly children from Stanmore and Edgware at St C D's and Bushey Meads in Herts. Some schools have complex priority areas by post-code so parts of Harrow may be considered to be within the 'outer' proximity zone for WGSG or WGSB (check the relevant school's website).

My comments were IMHO and "the Grammars" was only meant to refer to Watford 'grammars' (which are in fact technically comprehensives due to distance, siblings, music etc).

At my DC's primary school 50% of children get across the board L5s with 10% getting L6 in English or Maths - so working beyond a L5 'pass' 'towards' L6 was really what I was thinking of.

The SW Consortium test is 2 papers; one in KS2 maths and one in verbal reasoning and is very challenging regarding timings and many children in DS2's year struggled to complete the papers (they are not multiple choice). A L6 child at DS's school got virtually full marks. DS1 who took the test 2 years ago (L5) - currently top set in comprehensive - got 50%/65%.

OP; will your DD move schools anyway moving up to Y3? Also, what kind of GCSE results are not great from your perspective? It's a bit misleading comparing 50% 5+ GCSEs with 95% GCSEs.

We've just been through the Herts 11+ and the Bucks 11+ with ds, it was really tough. We are in a priority catchment for Parmiters so crossing fingers for a place there as we know his score, but with Bucks as plan b as he also passed. We are out of catchment for any Bucks schools though so our choices are more limited.

Ds thought the Herts test was more straightforward, but obviously because places are so limited it means the standard is really high. The (new) Bucks test this current year was hideous but if you are in catchment at least you "only" have to fall within the 30% to get a shot at your chosen school. Still means plenty of hard work though.

We home tutored and I won't lie, it was bloody hard work. Ds was pretty committed but even with a willing and able student it eats into family time, especially when you have other children. I would recommend having a plan b, c and d if at all possible and not to pin your hopes on any one outcome. It was heartbreaking to see some of the children come out of the Bucks test this year in tears, a few apologising to their parents for not finishing the paper etc.

Ps you make a single application to both counties if you live in Herts, just listing the Herts/Bucks schools in the order you want them.

PPS agree the big challenge with the tests is timing. The questions are pretty rapid fire. That suits some children, not others.

The VR paper in SW Herts does have a time pressure component.
Maths (which usually comes first) is the opposite; DS2 finished the 50 minute paper in 20 minutes. The Maths questions are straightforward and there is plenty of time, which makes the mean score really high. So to get a standardised score over 120, you need to get nearly every question correct. There is no room for silly mistakes or misreading the question.

In my experience there have always been plenty of children who could not finish the old Bucks 11+ papers! I think that because so many people tutor now, and many are tutored who are not realistically going to be successful, the poor children get more and more stressed. It is so difficult to judge how much to do and then the children become more upset when they realise they have probably "failed". The Bucks Grammars are hardly empty though but there will be more from out of catchment if the test is harder because these Grammar Schools are very successful and sought after. There is also a pecking order of Grammars so allocations to say Dr Challoner's Grammar and Chesham Grammar can be based on 11+ scores as the catchments overlap! It can mean at the appeal stage, Dr Challoner's will have no places left.

Admissions to Bucks grammar schools are very clear. If your child has achieved the qualifying score they are eligible to attend a grammar, regardless of how much above the qualifying level they were.

Allocations to grammars thereafter are purely based on the schools' catchment areas. These are very clearly defined and can be seen here.

Your closest girls grammar is DCHS which is always over-subscribed. As you would be out of catchment staying in Herts your chances of getting in would be minimal - not all girls in catchment are able to be allocated. Move just inside the Bucks border and you'd be ok.

Chesham Grammar is a great school but suffers a little from being less accessible so usually has a much much wider geographical intake. That may change though as the results there are excellent.

Chesham Grammar, and also Sir Henry Floyd School in Aylesbury, are never as full on first round allocations because fewer people choose them as first choice. Chesham overlaps with the Dr Challoner's catchment and Sir Henry Floyd overlaps with Aylesbury High and Aylesbury Grammar. Chesham and The Floyd were the old technical high schools and were not seen as full grammar schools many years ago when the tripartite system was introduced. They tend to fill up on appeals and out of catchment.

Bucks used to allocate to the the more popular grammar schools by score and definitely did this when I worked for them, but I am corrected that this has now been changed. All Bucks Grammar schools get good results, but there are reasons why children travel longer distances to some of the Grammar Schools.

Perhaps if you are planning to move you should save yourself the stress and move into a non-grammar area close to a good non-selective school?

If you live in a grammar area you have no choice but to play the game but why intentionally put your family through it if you don't have to?

Sorry just being devil's advocate here but I live close to the Bucks border and know a lot of children stressed to high heaven over the 11+ and the hard truth is most of them don't pass....

Absolutely OneMoreMum. The tutors take the money. Parents think that because their children appear bright (computer literate and chatty)they will get the magic pass mark so then the stress piles on the child to perform irrespective of reality. Unfortunately some of these children are not quick enough to finish the papers, have an insufficient vocabulary, or have to read the questions too many times to comprehend the more complex ones in a reasonable time. However when you look at the Grammar School results and facilities you can see why parents become desperate to have a place at one, compounded by the constant problems in some of the secondary schools. Many will not be able to afford the independent schools, so more pressure and stress. Near me the independent girls' school is now also selective and mostly feeds from its own junior department.

My younger DD did not sit the 11+ so avoided stress but hardly anyone does this. There is a right to sit the 11+ here and nearly everyone exercises it! Even if their child is clearly nowhere near a level 5. Children take it when they are level 3. Why?? What on earth is to be gained from it? So many parents are unhappy about the test results hence the massive appeals process and more stress. Being in the catchment for a good comprehensive in another County or in catchment for one of the Bucks top performing secondary schools is vital if DCs are not grammar school material. An early indicator is reading age. Should be way above chronological age. That is just a starting point though! Thank goodness mine are now older.

Thank you.. Valuable advice