Why are comprehensive schools allowed to have selective Sixth Forms?

[Reincarnatedpig]

This is really bugging me. DD is in year 10 at a comprehensive school with a banded admission procedure (all applicants take a test and places are awarded equally to each of the four ability bands). However the Sixth Form is a different story. They are now asking for all grades at GCSE to be B or above with A's in the proposed A level subjects. DD is dyslexic, she has sat 3 GCSEs so far with B's in all 3. She would like to do English A level but only got a B overall in English Language which she sat in Nov, she cannot resit (she will sit Lit in year 11). She got A/A* in the coursework but only a C in the exam. She is bright and in the top stream.

I just cannot understand why a comp is allowed to do this. They only offer A levels anyway. Surely someone with a B is capable of getting a reasonable grade at English A level. She wants to do fine art at college so grades are not that important overall but she would have liked to have stayed at her current school with her friends and there are no good alternatives.

Starballbunny, it sounds like your daughter has had to fight for everything, I know how you feel! I am sure she will go on to have a wonderful career - I think one attribute of dyslexia is the ability to see the world a bit differently - a good attribute for a research scientist.

Chocolatewombat, thank you for your comments. What a pity that we judge success in terms of exam results. Benefits those like me and DD1 who can memorise and regurgitate in the prescribed format, but not a good test of ability overall.

Nearthewindmill, my daughter doesn't aspire to teaching or admin. At my workplace they make special software or other aids available to colleagues with particular needs including dyslexic people who do admin. I am certainly not aware of any problems with work rate.

I have quite a few dyslexic colleagues (graduate entry profession) and they seem to cope fine though they have reasonable adjustments in exams (extra time, use of laptop) and special software for their day to day work if need be. I used to work with a brilliant man with fantastic organizational and public speaking skills who was dyslexic but he couldn't scan text or spell very well at all. It make no difference to his ability to do his job and he reached the top of his profession.

Olivevoir58 thank you for your constructive suggestions. I had discounted the school due to a dislike of the previous head ( I heard him describe his own pupils as "thick as planks") I had a look on their website and they do accept students with B's in Sixth - looks like it will expand down the vocational route this year as well.

Yes, MrsBright it is all about league tables. The school has a rather narcissistic Head who regards the school as his personal fiefdom, rather than thinking about the interests of the students or local community. I think DD is better off out of it.

Our local CofE school makes a big thing of all joiners in year 7 having to have letters from the vicar yadda yadda. Kind, Christian, inclusive yadda yadda.

Then kicks out anyone who doesn't get an A and allows the local high achieving heathens from independent schools to join at sixth form .

Yes my elder daughters school expect 4 A* at GCSE for those doing the med school combination of A levels and won't let anyone without triple science study sciences at A level, but they are a selective school.

What I can't understand re non academically selective schools; one school demanding A's, the others and the FE colleges asking for B's. The school DD attends is also proposing to redraw its catchment area to exclude the poorest area of the borough from which a majority of its pupils currently come.

The school DD attends is also proposing to redraw its catchment area to exclude the poorest area of the borough

That may well be a breach of the Admissions Code. Make your objections known to the consultation. If they still go ahead you should refer the matter to the Schools Adjudicator who will decide whether or not the school has breached the Code.

Thanks prh47bridge, I never thought of that!

I understand your problem with this. However, if the sixthform only offers A-levels, what is the point of setting students up to fail? The school will have based their entry requirements on the profile of candidates they believe can cope with A-levels. It does seem a bit strict, and perhaps you could argue an exemption for your DD. However, the jump for GCSE to AS is a major step up, and there is no point letting lots of students in, only for them to fail all their AS exams.

I went to sixth form at a comprehensive school, and the grades needed to get into sixth form were fairly lenient (5 A*-C grades including English and maths, however if one out of English or maths was lower than a C, you were allowed to resit it in October). However, the requirement to do individual subjects was usually a B grade as a minimum in those subjects, with an A being asked for in the sciences and maths. So, in reality, someone who got 5 C grades would be unlikely to continue on to do A-levels.

People often still failed and dropped out in the first term, and were often put off education entirely, when a BTEC at college might have been a better path for them. I think it's probably the best thing for students to be made to consider other routes than A-levels and university, as it's really not for everyone.

If she gets an A in lit, I am sure you would be able to make a good case for her to be allowed to do English A-level.

Whilst I agree that there's generally a case for restricting A level entry to those with a decent chance of success, in your DD's case I'd kick up an enormous fuss, because her B grade is not a reflection of her abilities, it's a consequence of the school's decision to put her in too early and then refusing to let her resit as per the original plan. I hold no brief for Gove, but I'm much more shocked by the school's decision to ban retakes that would benefit their pupils just because there's nothing in it for them. Does this strike nobody else as a grossly selfish dereliction of duty?

I can see what you mean. Most pupils don't really benefit from taking exams early. Many will achieve a grade lower than they would a year later. The only reason I can see for it is they are trying to relieve the pressure of pupils taking so many exams at once.....and this is caused by putti g them in for too many GCSEs (most selective schools will only do 9 GCSEs because more than that are of absolutely no benefit. Better to get 8 or so good ones than more mediocre ones). That issue is for another thread though.
However you are right that if they are put in early,especially for a core subject,they should be given the chance to retake, (if there is a sense of underperformance) especially if they have been promised it.
However, I still think the evidence shows that it is important for schools to set entry requirements for Academic A level courses, because it helps no one to have students doing them who have no real chance of success. Whilst it seems at odds with the experiences we as parents had doing A levels successfully from Bs and Cs at GCSE, these days such GCSE grades are not sufficient for A level success in subjects like maths. The jump up is great.....partly due to topics which used to be In GCSE having been cut....again another thread topic.
Ability in the subject is one thing to consider when deciding to do A levels, but so is being able to manage in exams.....because that is how the grades will be given at the end. It won't matter if you are good in class or in non timed conditions, exam performance is what will matter.

I must say it was a surprise to me to see how selective our comprehensive's 6th form is, but when you chew over all the arguments I think it is reasonable that it is like this, even if at times it seems cruel.

However I think if nothing short of an A at GCSE is good enough, you have to wonder whether the our current GCSE system is a bit wonky. For what its worth, I got a B's at GCSE in the seventies and there were no questions asked about doing the A level in that subject.

GCSEs are intended to be a comprehensive qualification, suitable for all 16yos.

A/A* identifies the top 25% in that particular subject; these are the students who'll be able to do well at A Level. The school will be under huge pressure to maximise its A Level results, so there's no incentive for them to offer a place to a

Mumslife, I did A levels many years ago and remember the jump. DD1 is in year 13 though and finds English Lit quite easy. She is extremely able,with a high aptitude for English, but not dyslexic like DD2, who is I think the brighter child. DD1 got 96 per cent ums at AS (from memory) and is predicted A* at A2.

I don't think restricting A levels to those with a minimum of A at GCSE is realistic. The other (partly) secular school in the borough asks for Bs as do the local FE colleges. Not only does this discriminate against dyslexic children but also those who have frankly had poor teaching or live in difficult circumstances.

I really enjoyed English Lit as do both DDs and I think if DD2 wants to study it at A level she should be allowed to even if she does art foundation for which she needs no A levels at all.

I think the school is trying to reinvent itself as selective. I know they don't actually fill the Sixth Form places. The proportion of A students definitely doesn't come from the school. There are 60 kids in the top stream and they certainly don't all get straight A's. I think the best thing I can do for DD2 is intensive training in exam technique. I dislike the school and would like her to leave but there is no obviously better alternative.

The policy of entry requirements is no more selective than life Im Afraid. Universities will require certain grades and saying you have had poor teaching in the past, will not result in lower offers. When firms look at job applications, one of their criteria will be GCSE or A Level or degree grades and they will bin those who don't meet their threshold requirement. They won't give special consideration to those from certain backgrounds or even dyslexia I'm afraid. It's the reality of the world.
After the early entry with no resit option is dealt with, your daughter will have to compete with everyone else. I know we don't like to think any doors are closed to our children, but as they get older we and they have to understand that the world is a competitive place. Her exam results will be the things that are seen first by educational establishments and employers. If she under performs in exam conditions, it will disadvantage her in many situations, which might not be right, but you do have to accept it is the system we live in. Sorry if it sounds harsh.
If you believe she has the ability to achieve good grades at A level in an exam, which will be good enough to get her to the next stage, perhaps go to the other establishment which will take a B. you could always ask for statistics of the A level grades achieved by those who started with As and those who started with Bs.

Chocolate all that is pretty irrelevant to my DD. She intends to do fine art in which she is talented. You cannot write someone off at 14 because they are one mark short of an A in English or judge them incapable of doing an A level. BTW I know plenty of people who did badly at GCSE, even A level but managed to get into University and have a good career.

Among my colleagues there are people with Ph.Ds and people with no degree at all doing exactly the same job (internal candidates are able to compete for the graduate training programmer without a degree). Sorry but the traditional educational route is not the only one to success and there are plenty of people with good degrees stacking shelves.

Also wtf should she have to change schools and leave her friends - the other one us awkward to get to - they are both comps in the same borough.

Yes there are many routes into some careers. Yes there are graduates stacking shelves. And I'm glad that this issue isn't going to hold your daughter back because she wants to do fine art.
I was addressing the title of your original post about schools setting criteria for A level entry. Lots of people have pointed out on this thread that A levels are an academic option which were never aimed to be suitable for everyone. Not sure if you have ever said that you accept that.
The issue of retaking an exam taken early aside, do you disagree with the statistical evidence that it some subjects (maths particularly) starting A level with less than an A is likely to lead to very poor performance at A level. Would you still want your child to start such a course, which will be examined, not assessed by coursework?
And following on from this, will you then be arguing with universities that your child should be allowed in with a different offer to everyone else, or with employers that they should interview her despite her results being below their threshold. I'm sure you wouldn't, but this kind of thing is a natural extension of your argument.

And following on, just out of interest, how do you think schools should decide who can and cannot take an A level in a certain subject? Would you ignore GCSE results and allow anyone to do it? Would you set the standard at a B or a C (and why at that level?). Just wondered, because it seems to me obvious that clear criteria are needed, but perhaps you don't agree.

No, I asked why a comp was allowed to ask for A at GCSE in order to do an A level in English. Maths does not concern me because DD2 is unlikely to take it at A level. As already stated I am fully accepting of DD1's school asking potential medics for 4 A*s at GCSE because they know the majority of the others will not make it to medical school.

In respect of your other comments, I think there is a case for dyslexics being admitted to a university with lower grades and I think that should apply to kids from deprived backgrounds as well. My elder DD is competing directly against access course applicants with far inferior qualifications. Who can say who will be the best graduate or professional at the end of the day?

Some people have it tough. I know my employer asks about special needs in the selection process and makes adaptations in the process if necessary - what is wrong with that?

In respect of your question, the cut off in my day was grade C. As most colleges school ask for B now I would assume that is standard now outside the grammar or independents.

I totally agree OP that DCs who need three reasonable A levels for vocational talent based courses likeAart, Drama and Music should not be expected to have As or even Bs in their non specialist subjects.

They never used to have to. It's the dreaded league table nonsense again.

If 6th forms publish their results and destinations in full, any parent/prospective student with half a brain cell will be see a range of grades indicating a well rounded intake.

I'd only worry if certain depts. got very few good grades.

You are right that it is impossible to know who will be the best professional in the end. Schools and universities also can't know who will perform best on their courses. GCSE exam grades are the best predictors of success at A level however, so in a world with imperfect information, that is what is used. It is a blunt instrument and it is good to hear that some employers and universities take other things into account too.

When I was at school, the requirement to proceed to A level was also C, although people with Cs usually got the Es and Us (although back then you could get into Uni with Ds and Es). Things have changed, with the increased levels of competition, GCSEs excluding elements of the syllabus which were previously in etc etc. many people think the jump up to A level is getting bigger (and will do so even more with less coursework) and that is why better GCSEs are needed now than in the past. Some places still ask for Bs, others for As. The trend is probably towards asking for higher grades, as you have seen. But then more people get As now than in the past, so it isn't really excluding those who previously would have been acceptable.
Best of luck to your daughter.

Starballbunny, that's a really good point. Also if there was a vocational school like the Brit School around here that would be a good option. DD got in last year but she didn't want to leave her friends and I thought the journey was a bit too long.

Thanks Chocolate. My sister always reminds me that she wasn't allowed to do English in year 10 like the rest of her year because the teacher thought she was rubbish. She is now an author, written academic books, scripts and edited a dictionary. As you say GCSEs are a blunt instrument to judge by. Thank you for all your comments.