Would you consider this to be sexual harrassment?

[EvilTwins]

I teach secondary, and have a Yr 11 tutor group. My co-tutor, 2 days each week, is a cover supervisor, who is well known and well liked. She is in her mid 20s, and is beautiful. She is curvy with a real hourglass figure, and dresses well for her shape and age.

Yesterday morning was her first session with my tutor group - I was doing one-to-one sessions in a different room. She mentioned afterwards that some of the students had very openly talked to her about the size of her bum. One of the girls had told her that her bum looked "huge" in the dress she was wearing. She laughed it off with the students, told them that she'd rather they didn't make personal comments, but told me afterwards that she had been upset. This morning, the girl who had made the "huge bum" comment saw her and started singing "I love big butts and I cannot lie" Obviously I dealt with it, but the girl insisted that she was paying a compliment. The teacher later told me that the same girl had patted her (ie the teacher's) bottom the previous day and had said "hi big bum". If this was a Yr 11 boy, then I would imagine the school would be down on him like a ton of bricks, but the girl doing this seems to think she's doing nothing wrong. I am not my colleague's line manager, and whilst I have been sympathetic and supportive, can't really do much more. Should I speak to her line manager about it, or leave it for her to deal with?

Absolutely unacceptable for any student to be commenting on a teacher's arse. It's a discipline issue. Suggest to the teacher that she bollock the girl, or get someone else to bollock her. If the girl claims she is doing nothing wrong, a suggestion of a detention and a phone call home to inform her parents that she keeps making inappropriate and rude personal remarks might change her mind.

I would mention it, yes. I think your gut reaction is correct.

It needs following up because this behaviour is seriously unacceptable and the teacher needs supporting

It is unacceptable and I think you need to report it. She has been told not to make personal comments and is continuing.

Although I do think it could be seen as sexual harassment, I think I would treat this as a discipline issue. In my experience, it is all too easy for people to start arguing about whether or not a behaviour fits the label as a way of ignoring doing anything about the issue.

I agree it's totally unacceptable but I can't help feeling the teacher needs to 'man up'. If she is going to teach in a secondary school she will need to develop ways of preventing unwanted behaviour. If someone spoke to or touched me inappropriately I'm pretty sure I could make it clear that they'd better not do it again.

Completely unacceptable behaviour.

She hasn't asked you to report it has she ?

She appears to be acting in a professional way, maybe you can leave it to her to raise with her line manager and just provide support/evidence when required.

It's inappropriate contact and the co-tutor should admonish the pupil for it. So agree about "manning" up.

She's not a teacher, she's a cover supervisor so has probably had minimal training. I think personal comments can be very difficult to deal with if they have found something that actually bothers you, and complaining to your line manager that 'student X says I have a big bottom, can you have a word?' would be pretty embarrassing.

I'd be offering to step in myself, seeing as she has confided in you and you are co-tutor, or suggesting how she approach the girl to get it to stop.

But someone else having a word on her behalf is not going to be helpful in the long run. She needs to develop a thicker skin or a firmer approach if she is going to survive in a secondary school! I'm sure the girl in question will continue to press all her buttons until she stands up to her. And someone else speaking to the girl on her behalf will probably just make the girl think she's winning the battle.

Yes, inexperience teachers or cover supervisors often do not know how to, or have the confidence, to really challenge challenging behaviour like this..

That's when support is most needed. This girl will just keep on pushing the boundary until it is addressed.

Long term, she will have to find ways of dealing with this totally inappropriate behaviour.

But short term, she needs someone else to step in and make it clear to the class that she is not on her own and that the rest of the staff will support her.

I think that should be you. As her co-tutor, you know the individuals concerned and can make it clear that you will be watching them. I'd leave the question of sexual harassment well alone. As pp have said, it's a matter of discipline. Pupils should not make personal remarks about their teachers in their hearing and patting her bottom is outrageous.

I think you need to sit down with the ringleader and explain clearly (again) why her actions aren't appropriate, and what will happen (discipline procedures) if she continues. I think it would be better to speak with her alone, rather than to the whole class. If you give the class a lecture they will treat it as a joke, and assume you don't think the co-tutor can't stand up for herself. I think that could make her feelings of humiliation worse.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have to say I'm a bit about those suggestion she should just "man up". If this was in an office environment, and the person making the comments/patting her bum was an adult male, I doubt anyone would blame the woman and suggest that she mans up.

When I spoke to the girl about it last week, she insisted that it was a compliment and then turned on the water works (her usual MO when in trouble) so I think I'll leave it til she's calmed down then speak to her again. My gut feeling is to speak to my colleague's line manager, even though she hasn't asked me to, so that this is on record if it comes up in future. And yes, she's a cover supervisor so very little training. She's also a sergeant for the local cadets, so not exactly a shrinking violet. When I started teaching, aged 22, I got a lot of comments about the size of my chest. I don't care if those teenagers thought they were paying me a compliment - it was inappropriate and I hated it, so I do know how my colleague feels. I was too embarrassed to speak to my HOD though.

I'm a bit concerned that a cover supervisor should be filling such an important pastoral role. Is that common where you work?

I once shared a tutor group with another part-timer and it was very difficult, even tho' we were both qualified and experienced teachers. I always felt that the group got a raw deal as we really struggled over picking up discipline/work problems and report writing was a nightmare.

I'm the tutor, but she sits with my group two mornings per week whilst I do one-to-one mentoring with individuals. She takes the register and runs whatever activity I've set up. I do all the pastoral stuff. All the yr 11 tutors have a co tutor for this reason, but my actual teaching co tutor is part time. I'm there every day though and my group know that I am their tutor. This arrangement enables me to do the mentoring.

We have done similar too. It does help massively with the amount needed to be done in tutor time

Oh gosh yes do deal with this student individually, and soon. She definitely needs to learn not to make personal comments about others. Supposing she had commented on your colleague's skin colour?

Why are you asking? why haven't you come down on this girl like a ton of bricks already. Pupils getting the idea they can treat cover supervisors, TAs and technicians like dirt, soon spreads to supply teachers and NQTs getting the same attitude.

Our school has several mum's who work as part time exam invigilators and clearly this sort of attitude in that situation could do real harm.

Pupils need to treat all adults and their peers with respect. If this girl feels free to make remarks like that to a member of staff, I dread to think what nasty comments she has for class members she dislikes.

you realise she would be totally identifiable from this?? Its your tutor group and you need to deal, but you need to bear in mind they could find a million ways to get at her if they consider her weak because you have undermined her

I've had over-familiarity from y11 tutees in the past - it's an uneasy year group, because everything you do is geared to preparing them for adult life, & that inevitably means a shift in the tutor/tutee relationship to reflect that; you end up, hopefully, being one of the first adults with whom they can have a relaxed, jocular, but respectful relationship.

But you're there in that capacity for gauche teenagers to practise their dubious social skills on, to an extent, so that they then don't swan off to their first job, or to college, thinking it's OK to arse-slap people above them in the hierarchy; so you get to tell them when they've got it horribly wrong.

So I've had comments on a skin breakout ('Miss, no offence, but were you on t'piss this weekend? Only that red spotty skin round your nose, it's like my mum's goes when she's been drinking') & my hair fiddled with, my skirt length criticised, my shoes admired, I've been commiserated with for having a ginger-haired dh (!).

...none of it's malicious. You can tell when it's motivated by bitchiness! It's just...being a tad socially clueless.

I think I'd sit the girl concerned down & explain briskly & in no uncertain terms that her behaviour is completely out of order.

'Do I ever grab your bum? No, I don't, do I, & it'd be completely inappropriate if I did. Could ANY teacher at this school go round patting students on the bum? Clearly NOT. So it's really quite dodgy - & I'm sure that's not how you intend it - for you to be touching Miss Bumble. & the same goes for personal comments. Do we ever need to have this embarrassing conversation again? No? Good!'

starball if you read the thread, you wil see that I have dealt with the student. I was asking whether posters thought it counted as sexual harassment and if I should take it to my colleague's line manager. Goodness, I'd be a fairly shite teacher if I ha to post on MN to see if I should tell a child off.

at eviltwins!

I think the student's behaviour is undoubtedly sexual harassment. Harassment is defined as 'a course of behaviour' ie it has to have happened more than once. If I am reading this right the girl did at least 3 things on 3 different occasions: talked about the way the staff member's bum looked in her dress, patted her on the bum, sang the 'big butts' song. IIWY I would speak to the line manager.

Yes take it to your line manager. It's verging on sexual harassment at worst, and just rude at best. Either way it should not be allowed to continue - it's undermining her authority too.