If your child has chronic behaviour problems at school but no SN

[lljkk]

How has school coped with it that you think was right or wrong, and what if anything do you think you could have done differently, or that you have done well?

Thx.

If a child has chronic behaviour problems then they should be on the special needs register. Bad behaviour is enough criteria to be included.
If it is just flouting rules eg. Short skirts, lateness etc. then this isn't enough and is probably just teenage rebellion.

Pm'ed you.

The child should have an "individual behaviour plan" and as such will be on the SEN register. I know you are talking secondary, but in primary, a child with chronic behaviour issues (certainly in my school) would have seen an EdPsych too and been referred to CAMHS. Has this happened?

Sorry, maybe I should start a new thread. About recurring or erratic behaviour problems. Not as chronic as I made it sound. I will do that instead if it gets responses from people with right experience.

It is difficult to answer without knowing exactly what you are taking about, can you give some examples?

Behavioural issues covers a wide spectrum and whilst some things (eg physical violence) we might all agree are issues others (eg backchat) might be considered a problem by some but not others.

So how it is dealt with successfully will depend on how it is perceived

Fair enough about examples.

Most common problem is refusing to do assigned work (while in class). Also being ill-tempered in response to any request or in interactions with others. Sometimes lashing out (violence). May refuse to talk or eat all day which isn't a problem in itself if nobody makes it a problem (but they might?). He quite loathes school, sees nothing of value in it.

At least one staff member made it clear that he perceived DS to be an ill-disciplined brat.
But this year, same teacher actually teaches DS, and they have obviously come to an understanding (which is typical of previous teachers in primary, DS only yr5 now). They know the boundaries, don't press each other's buttons and things mostly get done by not escalating their potential conflicts (mostly down to teacher choosing his battles).

Other teachers have done better, they learnt to be playful with DS, to coax him out of strops or encourage cooperation.

I think secondary school environment won't help those responses to arise, though. Kneejerk response from many will be to crack down hard which we know from experience achieves nothing, but I can understand why others like to try it. I can't imagine I can swan into a school and say "Gentle approach works better than discipline with him" -- and even if they did take that message to heart, DS will still be difficult lots of the time. So I'm trying to find out about good practices that others have encountered, for their challenging kids.

Or maybe just how to keep my own sanity, lol.

TIA.

I always admire your responses on other threads LIjkk.

My DS1 was a right tricky customer throughout school ( in retrospect HE would have been better, but there you go, easy to be wise afterwards).

To be surprise I found our secondary school to be unbelievably helpful. Really I well up when I think about how much they believe in him and helped him to succeed.

The key is getting one or two teachers on side...ideally his form tutor or head of house type person. The other needs to be someone who teaches his favourite thing (my son it was the PE teacher).

Go and talk to them before he starts and make a plan. I felt the secondary ( BTW, ordinary, state, non selective etc) wanted him to do well for his sake and for theirs.

He left with a load of good grades and is at college. Something I thought might never happen when he was 13.

lol @ Dollyd, and here I thought I was just super curmudgeonly on MN...
that's really helpful & insightful, thanks. I am trying to get my head around what strategy to take.

What did you say or ask during the yr6 open evenings, did you find any good questions to ask before choosing the secondary?

Lots of these behaviours could be linked under the heading of 'demand avoidance'.

I have two DC with ASD and this is an issue for one of them (btw, I'm not suggesting your DS has ASD, but that it might be worth thinking about how it is dealt with when DC are diagnosed).

Demand avoidance is usually considered within ASD as a method to control anxiety. In other words, when you feel out of control, you deal with this by trying to exercise control over the bits of your life that you can. This can mean refusing to do things expected of you. Giving back more control to the child, so negotiating rather than telling, usually helps.

This means that a good strategies can include being indirect in requests (so not do the task, better once the task is done, X will happen), giving a choice of task. So rather than do X, asking the child to choose between doing X & Y etc etc.

Good point about demand avoidance, I often wondered this with my son, (not Dx with ASD, but definite features esp when younger).

I was totally up front with the secondary...asked to meet the head of year 7, or the whoever looks after new entrants, and told them all his little quirks (!), and said what we'd found to be helpful and what we'd found to be hopeless (rewards...not interested in the slightest, being left alone was what he craved).

I got the feeling they were very grateful I'd made the effort to get organised and try and get off to a good start. I did made it very clear that I wasn't excusing bad behavior or expecting him to get off scot-free if he was being awful, but thAt it if he was approached in the right way then things wouldn't need to turn into a big drama.

Remember, most teacher want their lessons to go smoothly and to not have to deal with poor behaviour, so they welcome a heads up about how that can be achieved.

Forgive me if not relevant LIjkk, but isn't your DS a previously looked after child? The school should have someone who is the designated teacher for children who were or are LAC. Most schools should know by now that these children come with extra social/personal needs esp with forming relationships with adults.

Oh, and open evenings are ok but a waste of time for a proper discussion about your child. At the open evening ask who is the right person to speak to about a child with extra needs. Get their name, email them and go for a a proper 1-1 meeting at another time. Also your primary should be helping with this...they should be able to come with you to a meeting about transition planning for your DS? And he should be involved too...it's good for him to identify what makes the day go well, and what makes the day go badly. Eg... I like it when people stay away from me, I like it when it's quiet, I don't like crowds, i don't like teachers asking me things in public etc

At my school, we use the following strategies:

PLP (Personal Learning Plan) for students regardless of placement on SEN register - this has helpful info for teachers including the students' likes/dislikes (in general and in class) Students have been involved in writing the PLPs and typically they say things like "I don't like it if you tell me off in front of the class, so if you need to talk to me, please do it outside the room" and "I like working by myself, so if you ask me to do group work I will find it hard" This is really helpful when planning.

Timeout cards - if students know that they might react violently/aggressively to situations, they have a card which they can show, and then have 2 minutes outside the room to calm down.

A named and trusted person (in our case, a TA - he's young and a trained counsellor) they can go to if they need to - at any point during the day.

A school policy called Discipline with Dignity (not ours - google it) which is exactly what it sounds like, and means that staff are strongly encouraged to deal with behaviour in a specific way, and that if we don't, we are pulled up on it.

It is also policy to use "language of choice" with students - ie "Tom, if you choose not to sit down/carry on with your work/have a go at question 6, you are choosing a yellow card/to stay in at break time with me to complete it/whatever appropriate sanction" and to use our praise system 4x as often as the sanction system (simple green/yellow/red on board) SLT will pop in on learning walks and it's one of the things they want to see - 4x as many names on the green list as the yellow or red list. Name on the green list = house points.

Of these, the PLPs are most useful. The timeout cards are always issued in consultation with parents and are obviously reviewed if it is felt that the student is abusing it.

Might be worth a conversation with the SENCO/Inclusion person at the secondary school so systems can be put in place to support. If your DS was at our school, his PLP would have something like "XXX responds far better to encouragement than to sternness. If XXX loses his temper, then coaxing helps"

My ds has done similar in the past. Now in yr 7 hes got a fantastic head of year and I would echo what others have said.
Make an appointment with the head and SENCO of new school (ds current headmaster met him and said 'hes quirky, but we like quirky)
Consider asking for a referral to an Ed Psych.
Ds previous school were convinced he had aspergers, he doesn't.
The ed psych was able to give school and teachers strategies and information on what language they should use rather than trying to knock ds down. So, instead of 'you have to do this' she requested they say 'when you have done x, then you can do y'
It sounds ridiculous but it really worked.
I wonder if your ds is very creative? Ds form teacher said last term that 'when inspired there is nothing this child cannot achieve'
Your ds may find that the different format of secondary works much better as its not one teacher all day, any teacher they do clash with then its not constant.
He may also be very bored by the ritual of primary which if they are creative can seem very repetitive so as someone said above any anxiety feeds the behaviour because winding up the teacher becomes the only interesting thing going on! Secomdary tends to be busier and they are expected to be independent.
Be reassured that there is plenty of scope for the school and teachers to improve things for your ds and a behaviour support/ed psych really can come in and suggest things which seem blindly obvious which school often don't seem to think about.

Much good advice here but I also think that as a parent you need to constantly reinforce the behaviour YOU expect of him in school eg doing the work set. (not nagging or criticising anything he's done just calmly and firmly saying 'I want you to do what Miss X asks today' etc). In my experience If DC gets idea that a parent is siding with them in poor behaviour and believing it is all to do with teacher's approach then DC may not improve and may exploit the situation.

Yeah I have looked at PDA but DS is not remotely charming,manipulative or articulate. He does say yes to most requests if in the right mood. He does not tick the boxes. School gave me the "Oh you're one of those loony parents" looks when I half suggested it.

I just now did a quick autism checklist for DS and he scored 4/14 (I think that must be a low risk candidate??) I know plenty of not-remotely-autistic people who would score higher.

Sorry but I find search for some SN label distracting at best and highly confusing at worst. That's why I am interested in solutions without SN label as part of the picture.

Not remotely creative kid, sorry! If only!
Or quirky (unless I understand that word wrongly).
Never been in care, although I could imagine it in future. :(
Some of the suggestions are non-tenable, I am sure, no way anyone from the primary would go along for a transition appt. with the secondary. Not that his primary school teachers really understand him, anyway.
But some of the suggestions are excellent and workable, too, many thanks. :)
(Keep 'em coming)

I have looked at PDA but DS is not remotely charming,manipulative or articulate

Neither is DS3, if fact he is surly, demanding and often refuses to talk at all .

I don't think anyone is suggesting that your DS has PDA, just that some of the techniques developed for children with PDA might be useful to you.

Have you read any Ross Greene books lljkk? "The Explosive Child" and "Lost at School" might be worth a look. See a summary of his approach here.

I know children with a Dx of PDA who aren't charming, articulate or manipulative! Just very anxious explosive children who really cannot deal with the demands of school. Might be worth a further look. It's under diagnosed (IMVVVHO).

Very sad your primary won't come to a transition meeting with you. That's rubbish.

Sorry about the LAC comment I made... I thought I remembered you from the adoption boards.

About the SN label...totally take your point...but having one helps the school take you seriously ( again, IMVVVHO!)

I luffs the Explosive Child. But doesn't help at school.
Thanks for the clarification about PDA; weird because I've never seen a description of it which didn't give impression of very manipulative charming articulate ppl. This doesn't read like DS at all.

I am so bored of thinking about possible SN. It isn't helpful. Lots of people are difficult because they are simply difficult. DS is almost certainly one of these.

So if anyone wants to share about their simply difficult child, please chip in ! :)

"Lost at school" explains how the Greene approach can be used at school. Obviously it requires school to buy into it - easier said than done! I actually sent my ds' senco a copy of that article I linked to (which is based on "lost at school") to back up my argument that consequences/punishments for his meltdowns/refusals are counter productive for ds, which school did agree.

I think one thing you/DS need to do is to try to identify the triggers to his behaviour (ask school to keep a record not just of bad behaviour but activites/events/time of day etc to help work these out). Is he worse when tired, hot, hungry etc. Is it avoidance of work (dislikes task, fearing failure, being disinterested etc.). There is always a trigger (even in the tiny % who have a genuine behaviour disorder), even if we cannot immediately see it.

Explicitly teaching new responses to triggers and also explicitly teaching him to use different (less confrontational) body language and how to interpret body language of others (esp. teachers). School to agree a 'contingency contract' with DS where they agree what work will be done, consequences for non-compliance, agreed strategies for 'time-out' if he feels things are gong wonky (and doesn't abuse this by simply opting out if he can't be bothered). He/you need a system with clarity where misunderstandings will be reduced and there is consequently less need for the teacher to become angry. An agreed discipline strategy (in line with an IEP if necessary) - again keeps consequences clear and fair.

But being "difficult" can be enough to get a child on the SEN register, SEN doesn't necessarily equal SN.
I have one of my children on the SEN register purely at my request, it helped a lot at secondary - teachers realised that however charming and hard working she might seem, she doesn't always understand what is going on.

Also having taught in secondary schools, having a child on the register really helps you know that this child "has difficulties" and is not just acting up for you.

I would be contacting schools now if I was you and requesting to speak to the SENCO (year 5 before the secondary is busy with transition is an ideal time).

BTW one of my children is diagnosed with Asperger's and scores lowly on most of those questionnaires unless you think really hard to get examples of the "ASD" behaviour.

f he loathes school, then I think that is your explanation!
How does he behave at home and in other situations?

He has problems everywhere, Coco. Gets kicked out of clubs, grandparents don't like him, etc.