Sutton grammar schools to drop VR/NVR...

[Smartbutdopey]

...for Sep 2015. Entrance tests to be replaced with Standard maths and English tests which will be closer to KS2 National Curriculum material.
Hooray bloody hooray. About time !!!!

I see this is also discussed here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/a1944251-Grammar-offers-10-places-to-those-triggering-pupil-premium

I think they're trying to redress the balance to get good local candidates as the majority......Hurrah!

I suspect its also part of a move towards grammar school selection to be based on topicstaught at state schools in the normal curriculum rather than by prep schools and tutors

I'm not actually aware though that large numbers of prep school children get the places, do they? At DS's SWLondon super-selective I'm not sure it's more than 15 out of 120? And surely the whole thing is that prep schools tend to teach to a higher standard whether it's NVR/VR or English and Maths so does it really level the playing field at all???

state schools do not teach to the 11+
and 15/120
so on the basis that fee paying pupils are around 7% of the population
and not all fee paying kids are bright
sounds like a factor of ten distortion
the sooner it ends the better

Many prep schools in the area do not teach NVR/VR anyway;perhaps a few that stop at 11 - most of the prep schools go on to 13 or have their own senior schools attached. Private tutors are bountiful though! Although only 7% of children attend private schools, this is a national figure and the concentration of private schools is much greater in London and the South East, probably closer to 14%. More likely, the reason is that the grammar schools in Sutton have an increasing population of children from ethnic minorities (probably more than 60% and rising) and although these children are undoubtedly bright and hardworking, perhaps the standard of English is declining.

Why would the standard of English be declining and what does that have to do with ethnic minorities children attending grammar schools? I don't follow your logic.

Prep schools go on to 13. They do not prepare for the 11+ state schools from my experience and very few apply. In SW London, I think the prep schools are nearer 20% of the population.

Perhaps I didn't phrase it very well - "declining" the wrong choice of word. I understood the Sutton Grammars (eg Nonsuch) had added English to the entrance exam as a quarter of the students had English as a second language and this wasn't being tested properly - VR very easily tutored.

"will be closer to KS2 National Curriculum material"

I thought that the reason many secondary schools give the new Year 7s CATS tests was because they found the KS2 tests to be so unreliable.

clavinova my DD is at Nonsuch and yes you are correct, an English Comprehension test was introduced a few years to help raise the bar in terms of all round English ability. I agree that VR can be taught and a high mark in a VR test does not always mean an above average ability in english. Someone once said to me that if you rote learn the words in a dictionary it doesn't mean you can then construct a sentence or interpret text. Grammar schools like nonsuch are constantly reviewing their admissions policy and selective testing criteria to redress this balance. I think the revised selection test criteria is a massive change and an attempt by Sutton grammar schools to level the playing field for ALL children.

I do think there is an issue about the schools in what is a predominantly white part of Surrey being taken over by children from ethnic minorities though. It does to some extent skew the character of a school which essentially should be serving the local population. It also means that many of the children don't have a natural allegiance to the school or the area.

When DS and I looked round his super-selective, the mum of one of his school friends (the children are first generation British) commented that there weren't enough children from ethnic minorities and she didn't like it for that reason. But by the time DS started a year down the line, two of his four form entry classes are 45 - 50% children who have English as a second language.... They are certainly very focused on the sciences if not on English!

I have heard it said on more than one occasion and from a variety of individuals, that a lot of the children from ethnic minority backgrounds (and their families) do not fully integrate in school life - they get the school the excellent results but I think the whole point is that the Heads and teachers want boys who are not just academic automatons but give 'added value' to the school (and vice versa) too.

It has to be said though that DS's English skills are lamentable on occasion and we are an educated family with DW speaking RP! And we have so many books that half are stored in the attic!

It is true that in DS's year one of his classmates who go into one of the girls super-selectives 'came out of nowhere' and surprised the whole class (and parents) in doing so. She had always been a middle-table in a clever class pupil. But three years of tutoring worked magic.

Before I am shot down, let it be known that I was in essence one of the white working class boys who now sit at the bottom of the academic attainment league tables....

Hi gazzalw. You raise some interesting points. If I'm v honest my DD has had somewhat of a journey. She came from a predominately white primary school and now at Nonsuch she is now one of the Ethnic minorities. Initially she found it quite hard to adjust too and at times I thought we'd made a dreadful mistake in choosing the school. The issue is not about colour, race or religion....for my DD it was more about social, cultural and behavioural (where beliefs, attitude and participation can wildly differ). However, as some time has now passed, she has learnt to treat everyone as an individual and is happy and flourishing. She has also realised that some girls are good at music and maths and others at drama and sports. I do believe that this mix of talents really does bring richness to the school and my DD tells me that she is inspired by the girls around her.

Oddsins ' In SW London, I think the prep schools are nearer 20% of the population.'

That may be true in Wandsworth, Hammersmith and Fulham or Richmond, but not in Sutton or its neighbouring boroughs. Some info here (Table 3). Greater London average is estimated 12% at primary level. But in Sutton it is less than 5%.

The GS in the NW that my son attends ( and the girls counterpart) are dropping Nvr and replacing with an English test.

Ah, but 33% of children who go to senior school in Sutton live in another borough and Croydon and Kingston are neighbouring. Anyway, the boys' grammar schools have no catchment except for the last few places and a couple of years ago Sutton Grammar admitted 120 boys from 65 different schools. I wouldn't be surprised at any percentage of boys from private prep schools as there are bound to be a few very clever boys at every prep school. I think the anomaly in Sutton is the number of out of borough children attending the grammars, not the number of prep school children.

My son was out of borough when he got into SGS. We moved in the borough 2 weeks after he started school. I font know if that would show in your stats.

I don't see why it is problematic. Is it about the traffic? As there's far more car traffic at very local primaries. Most secondary school children use public transport.

DS is out of borough for his super-selective but it's a bus journey away and ironically an easier one than many of the journeys to secondary schools on the other side of our home borough would have been....

DS is best friends with boys who are from ethnic minority backgrounds - they are all very nice but they are not encouraged necessarily to socialise with their classmates out of school which is a bit of an issue for our DS.....

Looking at the pan London map showing distribution of pupils to schools by borough ward, I would say that SGS seems to have 5% from Cheam and loads from Sutton and surrounding/neighbouring ones so all relatively 'local' regardless of hearsay.....if you look at Tiffin Boys it's a different story.....

I think that Sutton is a relatively affluent borough but not with the mega rich families of Richmond, Wandsworth and Hammersmith & Fulham - but perhaps the lower private schooling ratio reflects the better levels of education across the borough - most of the secondary schools are generally considered good and does not Sutton have one of the highest levels of pupils attaining at least 5 A-C grade GCSEs in the UK?

Clavinova is right that a third at Sutton's secondaries come from other boroughs. See here - p.82.

Sutton's GCSE results aren't actually that impressive then, given they import so many high attainers (53.5% of 2012 school cohort compared to 33% average) and a smaller proportion of low attainers (9% compared to 17% average). You'd expect results 20% above average and that's what you get. I think the margin closed with other comprehensive LAs on Ebacc this year, too.

And here - thank you straggle. I don't think it's a transport problem LCHammer - just more competition for the best schools from out of borough children and not caused by prep schools as suggested.

data.london.gov.uk/datastorefiles/datafiles/demographics/update_25a_2012_cross_border_mobility_addendum.pdf

I think Sutton grammars have a more adverse effect on state schools in other boroughs. While Sutton has 53.5% high attainers, Croydon has 29.3% and Merton 25.4% in their secondary schools (not evenly distributed of course). It creams off high attainers from those boroughs and leaves some schools very imbalanced. Sutton's own comps all seem to have some form of social selection (religious admissions, tennis test...) which protects them but pushes the secondary modern problem further out.

It would be interesting to know if the 1994 Greenwich ruling was the cause of that. I've never understood how one borough can have so many grammar schools.

You are right Straggle...in DS's single entry Yr 6 class of the 28 children, 8 went to Sutton Borough secondary schools... (and several to other boroughs...) and they were all the clever ones or ones with an aptitude for tennis.

When my dd started W Girls few years ago she commented on many occasions that generally Eng Lang was worst subject for quite few of her class mates. By gcse year they all improved greatly.
I remember thinking then that school was shooting itself in the foot by not having English tested.
Eng comprehension can also be tutored as it is for boys schools.
Looking at my kids forms (both grammar) my son's have fewer kids from minority background so I guess girls schools are going to change in that respect.

Oh and I do have to say that Graveney is our closest school but we live about 300 metres too far out of 'catchment' to ever get a place on locality. So we have no compunctions in wanting our children to go to the best schools for their abilities which just happen to conveniently (we are on the right side of borough to easily access them) be in Sutton....

Our home borough seems to fail to see that the reason that the schools are not full to the rafters is that they historically are not high-achieving
ones...their plan is to fill current school spaces before they even consider a new school for the growing local population - I wonder whether they will get the uptake? I suspect not....

Unless those high attainer percentages for Merton and Croydon were a blip, their schools have done really well this year in Ebacc - see provisional 2013 Ebacc figures (Table 18). So of Sutton's pupils achieved 44.3% achieved Ebacc - which is top in the country - but in Merton, which had half the top set last year, 29.9% of pupils achieved thus, above the national average of 22.7%. Either its schools are retaining more higher ability pupils or are really performing better than Sutton for middle ability.

Richmond was very close - 41.2%. It is full comprehensive but with a lot creamed off to independent schools.

It's worth having a look again at final figures.