Tutored to get into selective school

[Kenlee]

I am just wondering what happens to the kids that are over tutored for admission to a super selective. Then find that the bright kids can do it so easily. Whereas they struggle and fall behind.

Do they get tutored even more or move to a new school. I know some people will say school academic results are the most important and the kids should suck it up for their future. Although I still have this romantic notion that school should be fun and where especially in secondary meet life long friends. I think if your being over tutored then you may miss this opportunity...

My DS was tutored for the 11+ and wouldn't have got to grammar school without it. He's now predicted A*s at A'level. As were many of his friends.
I never understand why people presume that children who are tutored will end up at the bottom of their class once they get into grammar school. It just doesn't follow.
Even if children don't actually physically go to a tutor, many of them are tutored by their parents at home- same thing if you ask me.

Linsey - I think the point Farewell is making is that grammars were set up to promote social mobility for the "bright working classes", not to provide a free education for those that can afford prep school fees and the cost of tutoring. Kind of looks unfair when you read it like that....Not judging, just clarifying....! And I'm not criticising you and your fellow prep school parents - it's the system which seems to have gone wrong in that the playing field is not even.

I dont believe in tutoring to pass a test BUT I do believe in teaching my children to love learning.
People that tutor are teaching their children that they only put effort in for tests IMO this is wrong.

Slickrick , you can enjoy learning AND prepare for tests, it is not mutually exclusive. I loved my subject at university but I had also to stady very hard for the tests.I think children should be tought how to apply themselves, even if they don't enjoy a particular subject.

For the superselectives (do have experience), the entrance exams, which are often IQ based anyhow, are only a component of the entry process. The headmasters report (CAT test scores, Maths Challenge certificates etc) are very important. The interview can also filter ability.

Tutoring rarely swings it; unlike for the grammar selection that can be gamed to some extent.

They rarely seem to get it wrong. Very few do not flourish. Indeed those that enter at 11 and 13 and eventually 16 often outperform those have come up from the prep school.

Without tutoring Ds1 scored an average of 85% in his VR and NVR papers, 10 years ago that would have got him in the local ss grammar when tutoring wasnt as universal ( based on a friends's ds experience). Then parents realised their dcs who scored 75% could push this to 85% and above if they were tutored and get into the grammar. This meant the 85% non tutored children might not get into the grammar so their parents had them tutored as well pushing their scores up to 95%. This has happened gradually over the years and hence why not tutoring your non genius child for the most selective schools puts them at a distinct disadvantage and everyone in these types of school are tutored unless they really are genius level.

I think interviews are the way to go ...

Ifthe exams can be tutored for I think interview is the only way...

Odd you do realise that not every SS is in Kent or Bucks? No head teacher report here. Just the 11+ ranking. And the 11+ is VR, English and maths.

But interviews are also limiting and can be coached for too (though I would hope the schools can see through that) ..and there will be some "gifted" children who don't interview well at all ...eg those with Aspergers...and others who have the gift of the gab because they do drama or public speaking with Lamda etc. so it seems like you need as much information in the round as you can get - head's report, interview and 11+ exams (which is what many of the selective Indy's rely on and take into account all range of things like drama, art, music sport etc.) ...issue is with superselective state grammars that have 2000 applying, that's not feasible...some heads may inflate their reports, interviewing so many would be vastly time consuming and then there will be appeal after appeal etc. So unfortunately it all comes down to a utilitarian 11+ test with a clear ranking of hard scores...but the more "untutorable for" they can make that test the better in my view.

tiggytape...things must have changed ...it was many years ago now, (won't say how many!) but I do remember being interviewed by head in a 1:1 for state grammar school after 11+. Also don't some faith schools interview? (At least I know of some parents that feel they have been interviewed when they visited).

It is not just tutoring which gives children an advantage, it is also the education their parents can provide themselves.

I am fairly good at maths and could teach my child VR and NVR myself. So how can I tell someone without these skills that they should not be getting a tutor for their child.

If, having just started year 6, a child can do all of the year 6 work needed to pass the 11+ it is because someone has taught them.

Indy5, DH had passed 11+ and went to a grammar school 30 years ago, he did not need a teacher's recommendation or an interview.

Sorry, it was meant to OddSins. And Math Challenge Certificate won't make a difference - the exam is checked by a computer :)

No wonder my daughter was talked to for an hour and a half. Talking about holidays and everything before being given an offer...

I never knew states cant interview....learn something new everyday...

aah ok understood...I still thought faith schools can interview parents and children ....how else do they establish attendance at church, beliefs etc..

Also the massive numbers of dcs taking 11+ In state schools make interviewing impossible. Most indies charge if you want to take their entrance exam. Also ive noticed a trend towards computerised multiplechoice tests which make the results very objective easier and cheaper to mark reducing the number of challenges from parents.

I think Oratory used to interview. I believe they're not allowed to do it any more, and their investigation into levels of service to the church is constantly under dispute. I'm not entirely sure whether it was overturned tihs year or they just flouted it, but service is currently being considered as a criterion.

the supplementary forms for the Oratory are enough to have you pulling your hair out.

Read this thread with great interest. Wrt to tutoring I think people use tutoring in preparation for 11+ and indy exams for different reasons. I truly believe that the majority of parents who decide to tutor already know their child is bright and their decision to tutor is not to make their DC brighter or smarter, but it is to teach them how to be fast and accurate in timed exam conditions. Most children sitting the 11+ are still only 10 at the time of sitting and apart from SATs or CATs most would have not sat an exam like this before, therefore preparation is key.