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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

School refusing to move DD1 down a maths set.

35 replies

EverythingIsSoThrowback · 23/10/2013 21:49

DD1 has always been good at maths until she had the teacher she has now. Up till year 8 she had teachers that worked well for her. Year 9 she moved up a set, (currently in year 11) that year was fine, but 10/11 shes been really struggling. She got a lower score (by a lot) in her year 10 tests compared to year 9.
Shes asked to move down because a) she says she really doesn't understand anything anymore, and the teacher goes through it to fast, explains it differently from their textbooks, and b) the teacher in the 2nd set is one she likes.
But the school refuse to move her down.. do they have any legal obligation to do so? I just really don't want her to mess up her GCSE.

OP posts:

camptownraces · 23/10/2013 22:44

The decision about which set, is the school's decision, almost certainly that of the head of Maths. They certainly have no legal obligation to have regard to pupil or parent preferences in making these decisions.

Who have you or daughter spoken to about this? Just the current class teacher, the head of year or the head of dept?

second set may possibly be prepared for Foundation rather than Higher GCSE: is that what you want to happen?

hellsbells99 · 23/10/2013 23:13

Hi Op. Do you know how many sets there are? If there are at least 3, then I would have thought only the bottom set would be foundation so moving to set 2 wouldn't affect the paper she would sit. As the previous poster says, it is probably the head of maths who could make the decision so try contacting them. At my DDs' school, set 1 and 2 do very similar work but set 2 a little slower. Good luck.

Original poster

EverythingIsSoThrowback · 24/10/2013 06:38

There are 14 sets total - 2 top sets, 2 second top, etc. All of the sets do higher apart from the 2 bottom sets. DD's class did the entire of their GCSE course in 5 terms of year 10, so it doesn't surprise me that she doesn't understand much. She has consistently got the lowest marks in the class (big gaps i.e (out of 50) 18, while the next lowest would be 30 or so), I just don't think it's good for her.
Her own maths teacher has said she should move down, but then told her that the school wouldn't allow it

OP posts:

HSMMaCM · 24/10/2013 08:14

Maybe the next set down is full? You can ask, but they might not be able to move her. If she doesn't understand something specific, can you use revision books, or go over it again on the bbc gcse site?

hellsbells99 · 24/10/2013 08:20

Hi. When is she sitting the exam? Nov or next June? If it is the latter and they have covered the course, will they be revising and going over gcse topics for the next 6 months or moving on to additional maths/AS topics? Arrange a meeting with the head of maths. But also get a revision book and print off past papers and start working through the topics again at home.

hellsbells99 · 24/10/2013 08:23

Have you checked her books to see what her work is like? Could there be a possibility that she is doing fine in class but panicking in tests?

sashh · 24/10/2013 11:16

Are you sure it is the teacher? It might be that she was OK until they started the GCSE work.

14 sets sounds like a lot. I'm surprised they have that many teachers tbh.

noblegiraffe · 24/10/2013 11:19

We don't do set changes in Y11 either. Usually a set change requires a swap and there may be no one in the set below that the teacher wants to move up, and by this stage in the GCSE course they may have covered different things and it would be too disruptive.

If you can afford it, I would suggest a tutor. Also, if your school has mymaths, get your DD to log in and work through the booster packs appropriate to her target grade.

bruffin · 24/10/2013 11:49

I understand where your coming from OP. My DD was always very good at maths ie top two in her class in primary. Started secondary and due to having a bad day when they had CATs she was put in 2nd class. She was disappointed but I told her she had to prove herself. She had a fantastic teacher and she thrived and YR8 was put into top set. Unfortunately the next teacher wasn't so good with her and she did okay but didnt thrive the way she did before.
In yr 10 dcs school reduce the class sizes to 20 per class and as dd was in bottom 1/3 of class they moved her back down to class 2. She started thriving again and was top of the class in yr10 again. In yr11 they moved her back to top set which she wasnt that happy about but thankfully its not the same teacher as before. We got DD's report yesterday and her new teacher said that they had made the right decision to move her up and she has no problem tackling the A* topics.
I actually think she would have been better off in class 2 in yr 8 and 9 as that teacher was not the right teacher for my DD. She really didnt engage DD the way the other 4 teachers have.

whyayepetal · 24/10/2013 15:55

Hi OP - I've had this with my DD - in her case she was moved down in maths ( and science) because another girl needed to stay in a higher science set, although her maths score was lower than DDs! This was because the maths and science sets are linked, and there are limited numbers in science because of lab safety etc. Might be worth checking if your DDs school has any similar timetabling issues and talking to relevant heads of department if necessary.

Original poster

EverythingIsSoThrowback · 24/10/2013 18:27

I know 14 sets is a lot, but her school is extremely big it'd be so much easier if she liked being in a private school like her sisters
I think it's probably a bit of both the GCSE course and the teacher, but her old maths teacher (2nd set teacher) is also her physics teacher, and he has helped her with the GCSE topics before, and she has understood it coming from him.
About 3/4 her class is taking the exam in November, she is not.

OP posts:

cardibach · 24/10/2013 22:27

That's not such a big school, it's enormous! I taught in a school with 6 form entry/6 sets in core subjects, and that was a school of 1300+. 14 sets would mean 3000 odd! I would not be happy to have my child in a school that big for many reasons - I think appropriateness of maths set is the least of your worries. Surely there is some middle ground between private and enormous?
Too late for that now though. You have to accept the school's decision at this stage in the game.

Original poster

EverythingIsSoThrowback · 25/10/2013 07:01

Her school is split into three sites (7-9, 10/11, 12/13) there are about 600 on her site, which doesn't really bother me, or her.

OP posts:

noblegiraffe · 25/10/2013 09:56

If there are 14 sets, then the work done in set 1 isn't going to be particularly different to the work in set 2. In which case your DD just wants to move sets to be with a teacher that she likes.

Any school that starts moving students based on teacher preference is just asking for trouble.

Original poster

EverythingIsSoThrowback · 25/10/2013 15:24

Set 2 are about 3/4 through the GCSE syllabus, while my DD finished last year, so it is quite a big difference.

OP posts:

hellsbells99 · 25/10/2013 15:32

If 3/4 of the set are doing the exam in Nov then they will split the class then so hopefully your DD will get more help then.

Argolis · 27/10/2013 22:49

My dd has just had the opposite problem, of being put in the second set (in year 7) when I suspect she should be in the top set (was top of her year at primary at maths, got level 6 in SATs, is better at maths than her older sister who has always been in the top group). But dd2 is dyslexic so wonder if this is why she has been put into a lower group. Who should I talk to to discuss it? And any chance they'll be anyone at all around over half term to talk to at all?

bruffin · 28/10/2013 02:49

I wouldnt say anything Argolis. I said above same happened to my DD and i told her to prove herself which she did.My ds is dyslexic and was in second set until yr 10 when he went up to top set. He is now taking maths and further maths at A level. My dd was always better at maths than he is.

Retroformica · 28/10/2013 04:56

She's obviously very capable but struggling with the learning/teaching style. Can you ask the teacher what areas she is struggling in and then employ a weekly tutor to help her get to grips with these areas? Or get the teacher to set more work for your DD to do at home so you can help her get to grips with things. Learning maths often just repeating something over and over again, once there's an understanding of method.

noblegiraffe · 28/10/2013 09:15

I would expect a child who got a level 6 to be in the top set, and if she isn't, then school will certainly be expecting a call querying it as it would be an unusual decision.
There won't be anyone around at half term, but definitely phone school the first day back. You'll be wanting to speak to the Head of Maths, and they should be able to explain what your dd needs to do to move up. Dyslexia shouldn't make any difference in setting decisions, not in maths.

It's possible that there has been a mistake in the setting. If not, like I said, they'll be expecting your call.

Argolis · 28/10/2013 12:07

Thanks, noblegiraffe. Am very upset for her as she has always been overshadowed overall by her elder sister and lacked confidence except in maths, which was 'her thing', and which she was top in despite being youngest in her year. I know that she is much better at maths than her elder sister, so there is no logic in her being in a lower set, albeit in a different year. It's not even really the second set, as there are 2 top sets, 1 middle and 1 very small bottom set, so the 'middle' set is really well below mid-point numerically.

It's certainly not based on her teachers' greater knowledge of her - she's only been there half a term, has had a bug so missed a few days' lessons, and has had 2 maths teachers, 1 of whom herself has been off a lot! with a bug, and also had almost no maths homework. She's quite quiet and well-behaved, so I'd be v surprised if either teacher even knew who she was or had any info apart from a single test (done when she wasn't feeling that well) to go on.

I tried calling the school but no-one there - v frustrated.

Argolis · 28/10/2013 12:10

And Retroformica - she is very logical and grasps new ideas very quickly. But they haven't been doing any new work, anyway, just going over old stuff she'd already covered in year 6. So I don't think she needs a tutor.

Although she may do to catch up with the top group, if she's left to languish in a group which is too easy. :(

noblegiraffe · 28/10/2013 12:25

If she wasn't feeling well when she sat the test and they have only set on those test scores, then you have a clear case for arguing that she is in the wrong set. Set 3 for a level 6 is ridiculous, however little weight you place on SATs as a measure, unless the school is selective and has an unusual number of level 6s.

When you speak to the school, if it's not a mistake, ask how many other level 6 children are in set 3, and what level set 3 and the top sets will be expecting to achieve at the end of the year. If the target is level 6, ask how your dd is expected to make any progress from KS2. Then ask how many level 5s are in the top sets and if any, ask why they deserve to be given more challenging work than your DD.

These are all valid questions, btw, don't be shy of asking them, they should have an answer for you.

AtiaoftheJulii · 28/10/2013 14:30

Argolis, if you look on the school website there might be an email link for the head of Maths? I always start my school communications with an email, easier than playing phone tag trying to get hold of each other.

Argolis · 28/10/2013 16:42

Thanks noblegiraffe and Atia. It is a semi-selective school but only 25% selected, so she still ought to be in the top half, I would have thought? Could it go on CATs as well?

As it's a semi-selective school, those who got places on exams will probably have had a lot more practice than her at exams (she got in as a sibling) - but I doubt their maths is actually loads better. She was one of only 2 in her year at primary to get a maths level 6, and didn't have any tutoring.

Well, if/when I get hold of anyone, I will ask the questions you suggested, noblegiraffe. As far as I'm aware, school league tables will measure her expected progress and if she came in at a level 6, however they do it, surely she ought to expect to end up with a top grade in maths at GCSE - so it's in the school's interest as well to make sure she doesn't get stuck doing lower level work.

I asked her if she asked her teacher about her group - she said he spent the lesson doing games, then announced the groups just before the bell, so no chance to ask anything. And this just before half term, so I can't raise it either...

Suppose I'll just have to stew, unless I can find an email address...

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