What happens if they get excluded?

[Minifingers]

DD in year 10. Had a call from HOY this week and apparently dd is now on a 'time line' where they are noting down all misdemeanours. All of them. I can only assume they are collecting evidence to support excluding her if her shit behaviour continues. She has already been on internal exclusion this term, and apparently her behaviour since returning to the classroom has been poor. The HOY did make noises on the phone to me this evening about dd being permanently excluded.

What happens if this takes place? Will she be offered a place at any other school in the borough which is willing to take her? A pupil referral unit? What's the normal protocol.

Feel like we're standing on the edge of a precipice here. Will be gutted if dd has to leave the school as it's a very decent place which has done its best to support her. Sad that she's given so little back and seems hell-bent on destruction. :-(

Has she had any fixed term exclusions? It is very difficult to permanently exclude a child especially for low level behaviours (rather than one off very serious incidents) and normally you would expect an escalation of fixed term exclusions before this.
You should also be having meetings at the school if the situation is as bad as that. It would be worth you arranging one I think.
If it does get to that point then another school may well take her under the fair access protocol and a fresh start. This can be arranged without your dd being permanently excluded. If she was perm excluded then a place in a pru becomes more likely.

Meeting tomorrow.

Yes - constant disruption, walking out, and the recent internal exclusion was for swearing at a teacher.

The schools with places in our borough are very, very tough places :-(

How many days has she had?
That is often true about schools with spaces but if current school is not working a new start even somewhere 'rough' may still be better

We have excluded for a long line of " low level" behaviours, although swearing at a teacher is serious and we would have excluded for at least a day. However whenever we have issued a permanent exclusion there has been a series of short exclusions starting at a day and building up.

My son had a managed move from one school to another because we were concerned about a permanent exclusion and then facing very limited choices .

Things are obviously not going well.
However you do need to understand certain facts around exclusions. Firstly any internal exclusion is not an exclusion in terms of the discipline code. In effect many pupils are excluded permanently for what is termed persistent disruptive behaviour but to be able to do that the school needs to demonstrate that it has exhausted all avenues to improve behaviour. Part of that route does need to be short term exclusions and I think that you are lucky that the school is taking a relatively lenient view of the swearing at a teacher, that would definitely have been a short fixed term exclusion in my secondary school.
There are other acts of poor discipline that could mean permanent exclusion for a one off offence. So such things as fighting, hitting a member of staff, having a dangerous weapon on site or drugs are all acts that would justify a permanent exclusion for a one off offense.
I think that the other issue you need to try and address is the underlying reason for this poor behaviour. Is she struggling in class? Does she have special needs that have not been identified? Is there an issue at home? Think it is time for a serious word with daughter and with the school to establish exactly what is going on at school.
If the worst does happen, then the LA are ultimately responsible for finding another school for your daughter, but the first stop may well be a Pupil Referral Unit (PRU) to see if their specialist staff can ascertain the reasons for the poor behaviour. The chances of it being a "good" school will depend on the local circumstances but I would no hold your breath.

I'm going to talk to you about this from the other side OP. Inasmuch as you are worried about your daughter - what about the other dc in her class and the impact on them maximising their potential; their enjoyment of school; their stress at wondering who is going to kick off in or disrupt the next lesson and spoil their days at school. What about the teacher's positive attention they don't get because so much time is spent on girls like your daughter.

There were about five or six girls like your daughter at our dd's small high performing state comprehensive. The school could do little about them permanently in spite of appalling behaviour. Our dd used to come home in tears sometimes and the days she had a double lesson with some of the brats first things would leave in tears.

Fortunately we had the means to move our daughter to the independent sector where unacceptable behaviour is dealt with immediately and there are no politically correct soothing meetings and psychobabble

Your daughter is raining on the parade of everyone else. Why shouldn't she be in a rough school - she acts rough and will fit in there. She will do less damage to other children's education.

I'm sorry OP but I have a little sympathy for you and absolutely none for your daughter. She needs a wake up call and it might be that a few weeks in a PRU provide it. There are probably ten local girls who are well behaved who bite off the head teacher's hand for an escape route from the rough school.

While you may be correct, marriedinwhiteisback, you are displaying astonishingly little empathy.

OP there are PRUs which are fantastic and there are those that aren't. One thing which really matters is the parent caring about the situation and working with the school to get the best possible way forward. Your dd is lucky to have someone taking her interests to heart ecen when her behaviour is bad. Best of luck to you.

What an astonishing lack of sympathy marriedinwhite. The OP is not disruptive, her child is. The OP is seeking advice and help and is probably all too keenly aware of the effect on the school as a whole. However, she too needs help.

I teach but don't have anything to offer except my sympathy and thoughts. Sometimes a fresh start can really help. We find poorly behaved children from primary often reinvent themselves when they arrive.

Thank you admission and Arisbottle that is very helpful.

Married - just

Really.

I don't know what to say in response to such a nasty (and frankly stupid) post.

Shame on you.

Incidentally - this is a child who was perfectly well behaved in primary and went through school from 4 to 11 in top sets the whole way. Every single report I ever had up to the end of primary described her as 'very bright' and 'a pleasure to teach'. Something has gone terribly, terribly wrong with her development in adolescence which none of us can understand or know how to deal with. I am a qualified teacher myself and am absolutely mortified by her behaviour. I have apologised to her teachers over and over again, and I'm terrified about what will happen to her if she leaves school with no qualifications. I have cried so many tears over what's going on I can't tell you.

I'm really shocked at how nasty your comments are, and how smug. Really you should hold back on commenting on threads like this if you have nothing helpful to say.

I thought I'd posted on this thread? My posts seem to have disappeared!

"but really is a change of schools so awful?"

Yes. She's in year 10 and has already changed schools once in the last 12 months, and had a whole term and a half out of school altogether.

"People worry about rough schools because of children mimicking the unacceptable behaviour of others and losing all interest in education. If that's the stage you're already at what do you anticipate would be worse?"

She is currently at an ordinary girls comprehensive, which has children from a very wide range of backgrounds. The school has been very tolerant and supportive of her and us so far, and I cannot see how the disruption of going to another school when she is supposed to be taking her first GCSEs in November and January will work. I especially don't want her going to a mixed school. She is hugely over developed (she is wearing a G cup bra and has been since she was 13) and I think she has enough problems as it is without mixing in sexual harassment. I took her out of a mixed school in year 8 - she had started getting into fights with boys about nasty things which were being said to her. (btw, I would never have disrupted her education in the first place if I hadn't also been very dissatisfied with the school's response to dd failing to complete any work in class or at home for over a year).

I don't think marriedinwhite's post is stupid OP, a little insensitive perhaps but she sounds like a mother worried about her child, just like you.

If something has gone terribly wrong in this school, maybe a managed move to another may be for the best?

What are her friends like?

X-post!

"a little insensitive perhaps but she sounds like a mother worried about her child, just like you."

Yes - she must be terrified, what with having a hard-working, compliant child at a naice private school (having left a 'small, high performing state comprehensive'). Seriously - how heartbreaking for her and her dd that a few of her lessons were spoiled by badly behaved children.

"If something has gone terribly wrong in this school, maybe a managed move to another may be for the best?"

The 'something' that has 'gone terribly wrong' is in dd's head. The school is fine. Their response to her behaviour is appropriate. It's not the school which is the problem. It's dd.

What are her friends like?

Nicer than her. Kids from disadvantaged families often, but kind, helpful at home, engaged at school. She has a couple of friends who've been excluded or are at PRU's. I don't know them very well.

Here's some guidance which may be helpful

It will be worth discussing next steps with the school- a managed move to another mainstream school is nearly always preferable to a permanent exclusion. Managed moves can also be to a PRU.

Having taught in PRUs, I have seen some children flourish in them, and some who needed to be in mainstream or a more specialist setting. Don't assume it will be all bad if your DD goes to one.

Does the school have any local agreements with other schools? Some schools will send pupils to another school or PRU for a fixed term before considering permanent exclusion. Some boroughs have specialist settings, although nowadays it is more likely to be under the 'Alternative Provision' (AP) banner, along with the PRU.

Can you say where you are? PM me if you like.

And have a on me

I posted before I read that you had already tried a managed move. Do you think she wants to end up at a PRU? I'm sure you have explained to her what the consequences of her behaviour will be! Interesting that she has friends who have also ended up there.

I still agree with much of what marriedinwhite said (although perhaps not the tone!) in so much as if I had a child who was continually bullied and disrupted in a school i had chosen for her, I would be devastated and would be taking her out ASAP. I have a huge amount of sympathy with victims of bullying, but I'm afraid not so much with the bullies. Sorry, I'm not much help I know!

I don't think it's helpful to see this in terms of 'bullies' and 'victims'. Often children with challenging or disruptive behaviour are 'victims'.

Besides which, nothing the OP has said suggests that her DD has been bullying other children- other posters have simply projected that.

I'm awfully sorry but I have lived this from the other side. Your dd's behaviour is your responsibility overall and there are no circumstances where a badly behaved, uncontrollable pupil should ever be allowed to dilute the educational achievement of the children who are well behaved and willing to learn. Yes there is something wrong with your daughter and yes it needs to be dealt with but not at the expense of others. I am sorry you are going through this but you have had three years since primary school to deal with it and perhaps she needs a little more help than a few sessions of CAHMs can provide.

Our daughter became so distressed by bad behaviour that she started to self harm, developed early stage anorexia and required paediatric specialist counselling. So yes, I am harsh because I think people whose children don't behave need to be aware of the consequences on other people's children. My daughter was able to move to a naice school and I am very grateful for that; some of her classmates who were lovely girls some of them from single parent homes with very little money are stuck there - still struggling with mothers worrying that they are doing their best and that their children's achievements are being incrementally eroded.

Your dd has had her chance in a good supportive school; it isn't enough for her so by default she needs to face the consequences of life in a bad school. It might be the wake up call that she needs. I say that on behalf of every parent who has children who have to suffer bad and disruptive behaviour on a daily basis. When I was at school it didn't happen - there were no adjustments and action plans the children were expelled.

Yes - she must be terrified, what with having a hard-working, compliant child at a naice private school (having left a 'small, high performing state comprehensive'). Seriously - how heartbreaking for her and her dd that a few of her lessons were spoiled by badly behaved children

Finally that comment OP sums up the extent to which you have considered your daughter's impact on others and implies to me that you have not once encouraged her to reflect about her actions on others. That perhaps is why she is so badly behaved - everything in her life is about self because that is what has been projected.

I'm not going to nakedly sympathise with you - girls like your daughter made my daughter's life a total misery for two years.

Yes I agree tethersend! Haven't read any evidence of the OP's daughter being a bully. Realise perhaps my observations haven't been very helpful, just thought that the other poster who's rather emotional post was branded 'stupid' may be as sensitive to the issue of bullying as I am! (Even if not present in this case!).

Married, the OP's DD has not harmed your daughter.

What your daughter has been through sounds utterly horrendous- but this thread is not the place to blame anyone. The OP's DD is a different child, you have no idea how she feels, the reason for her behaviour, or even what her behaviour looks like.

Nowhere has the OP suggested that her DD has targeted other children, and what you are doing is incredibly inappropriate.

"Girls like your daughter made my daughter's life a misery for two years"

You've never met her- your daughter has never met her. How on earth could the OP's DD be responsible for what your daughter suffered? You are projecting your DD's awful experiences onto this situation which simply isn't fair and makes you look spiteful.

"[...] you have not once encouraged her to reflect about her actions on others. That perhaps is why she is so badly behaved - everything in her life is about self because that is what has been projected. "

You have no idea about this girl's life, married. None of us do. The above comment was completely out of order, and does your credibility no favours at all.

Married - You seem to be keen to pin the blame for your dd's anorexia on the children who disrupted her lessons at her comprehensive and maybe that's why you're being so hateful and illogical.

It's good you have got out of the state sector.

The state sector has to cater for the full spectrum of children with the full spectrum of needs. You know, the children who are having emotional and behavioural difficulties, children whose behaviour may be linked to abuse at home, undiagnosed learning difficulties (quite a few of those in secondary), or autistic spectrum disorders. It's a bit like life you know. You can't filter out everyone who makes life uncomfortable for other people.

I have a son with autism who has been educated in mainstream, very successfully so far, although sometimes he can be disruptive. No doubt he has annoyed his fellow pupils at times and disrupted their learning on occasion. No doubt you'd like to see him in a 'special school' and my dd in a... well, who knows. I'm sure there's a scrap heap somewhere you'd like to see her on. Somewhere far away from 'normal' children.

"I'm not going to nakedly sympathise with you - girls like your daughter made my daughter's life a total misery for two years"

Did these girls bully your dd?

Or did your dd develop psychiatric problems because of regular low level disruption in her lessons which was not directed at her? I suspect you're exaggerating to prove your point. I'd be amazed that a top performing comprehensive would tolerate a small group of children regularly and systematically disrupting the learning environment to the point that other children became completely emotionally unable to function. Especially in its top sets (I presume your dd is high achieving) It's irritating to other children, boring and frustrating. But to trigger an eating disorder? In a child who's not being actually bullied or targeted?

You seem to want to believe my dd is a bully, and that I don't care about the impact of her behaviour of others. Neither of these things is true. You just have your own weird little agenda arising from your own struggles with your dd. Perhaps you'd like to take it off my thread?