Entering DC for 11+ at fancy private schools which you can't afford.

[WetGrass]

My argument 'pro' would be that it is good experience to compete against other bright kids - and potentially it could be a Plan B if the state schools' 11+ was a washout and we won the lottery; and she got a scholarship; and we didn't worry about her brother being envious . From DDs point of view - it would also dilute the anticipation of the single 11+ exam which decides the state schools. For private schools - she'd be well placed to go for music/sport/art scholarships - which again seems a more fun Y6 than being all about SATS and NVR.

On the 'contra' - I would guess they would find you out at interview if you weren't totally into it? Dd might fall in love with a place where she won't go...? Exam over-load? Inferiority cOmplex? We'll sign her up regardless and finish our days in the poor-house?

Are these actually grammar schools, or are they selective state schools where you have to sit an pass a test, such as the Wandsworth test in Wandsworth, for access to outstanding schools such as the Ashcroft? (I think the Ashcroft requires an aptitude test within technology also if I am not mistaken, so two tests, the Wandsworth test and their own test?)

QS - you are right on - the Plan A schools are technically comps - but a slice come in on aptitude this, a slice on aptitude that, a slice are brothers and sisters of people who'd previously shown aptitude this & that - and a slice of people who'll play the postcode lottery aggressively enough to get their DC a place at a popular school.

After reading all of this....

Im just glad I dont live in England and earn a minimum wage.

I just realized trawling through most of the conversation that the state schools. If they arent grammar or select schools. All are just dire and should be avoided at all costs. If its a good state then naughty parents change their postcodes to get in...So changing the school from a local to a select school anyway.

I say do the 11+ and if your kid is smart enough let him go to the select or grammar school. Not because he is not afraid of poor people but because the level of education is right for him. He will encounter the poor gradually as he grows up...

We have to cut back on holidays and half term trips, etc, (and started to seriously get our general expenditure down) to ensure ds1 can have a private education. Not just because of the standard of education, but because of the discipline in class. The children are keen to learn. They work hard in class. There is no shoveling, pushing, goading, and talking in class. Makes all the difference for my son.

I've just written an email to ds's form tutor to request a meeting to discuss his future.
We are in a similar boat. Ds goes to a very good local prep on a bursary as the local state schools have failed him. He is top of the class in nearly all subjects so he needs a good academically based senior education.
There is no way we can afford private though so we need to work out what to enter him for, what he has a chance of obtaining and what would just be getting up his hopes. I find it all terrifying.

We don't have grammars here. Just disappointing comps.
Ds will change at 13 not 11.

The thing is - Dd is the eldest of four children.

The bald fact is that we can afford private education for 1 child - but we absolutely can't afford it for 4.

Plan A is that 11+ is a breeze & we're happily building a relationship with a state secondary that we anticipate all the DC go to.

Plan B is a hideous mush of half baked 'what ifs' - and difficult conversations about individual needs vs overall fairness. Hence why I'm thinking that paying a couple of hundred in entry fees may be worthwhile in order to at least give the illusion that there is a Plan B!

Have you spoken to their current school?

(Ds is the eldest of 4 too)

It's parents evening at the start of October - where I expect I will get a steer on their view of which schools will suit Dd in terms of aptitude and personality. However, they obviously can't advise on finances, logistics and siblings - so I feel I should have given these things some thought before the meeting - so that we can quickly get down to a suitable shortlist of schools to apply for.

Does it make prep schools look bad if their pupils get offers/scholarships etc that they don't take up? Or is it just a normal part of the process?

Dd1 sat the entrance exam for a school because an issue had arisen with local state schools that was going to cause an issue. (one was planning on going split site, dd1 would have been at the far site without transport and very hard to get there)

She got a 50% scholarship, which was the maximum they offered.
In the time between doing the exam and the offer, the state school backed down due to parental pressure (the idea was stupid as everyone except the head could see).
So we refused it for several reasons. One being we now didn't have the issue. Second one being, we could do it for dd1, might scrape through with dd2, but would have no way been able to afford it for ds as well. Didn't seem fair to give it to her knowing that we couldn't do it for all. And we now knew that there was someone going to the school (very small too) who we wanted to avoid dd1. (not nasty, juts better for her)

It was a very difficult decision. The last reason meant that dd1 was okay with the decision, but when things crop up at her present school (and they will) you always wonder if you make the right decision.

Um....just a heads up to Kenlee: you have got the wrong impression, thankfully. There are plenty of decent state secondary schools (no grammars) in many areas of the UK.

It just depends on where you live.

O thank goodness for that...

"There is no way we can afford private though so we need to work out what to enter him for,"
Thewomentheycalljayne dont know where you live or if you would consider boarding at 13 but large bursaries are available to very bright boys.

WetGrass, with four dc, I would stop torturing yourself, and focus all your efforts on playing the aptitude test/postcode game for good state schools. The exams all have slightly different formats and subjects - why waste effort prepping for one pointlessly (if you tell her prep she will only be doing VR and NVR, say, they may allow her to focus on those, or whatever else the papers are for your state schools locally). This is a really draining process for the whole family, don't go down dead ends.

Secondary schools are very different from primaries, socially - I would think through your concerns and anxieties and talk to people with older dc at your possible schools if you can. But don't assume everything translates.

Good schools, in whatever sector, do not spoon feed.

Is it pointless prepping though?

State schools are VR & Maths.

Privates are VR/Maths/Essay task/Comprehension task/interview/art test/music test etc etc.

I would consider practising writing essays, speaking clearly to adults etc as being 'learning' rather than 'prepping'.

(Unlike 'death by bond books' VR work- where I think you really do start to get diminishing returns & skills that are only relevant for one exam).

& tired - I think I was concerned the other way - the state exams are Q3 - whereas the private exams are up to six months later in Q1. Would Dd be marginalised if she wasn't preparing for the private school exams along with the majority of her class at prep school?

Even if 11+ was a dream - I'd still be enthusiastic about her getting pushed to mature as a writer and communicator.

Mmm, up to a point! I think there are more efficient and certainly more fun ways to mature as a writer and communicator than past papers of any description done under exam conditions - and if you are not doing that, it isn't worth bothering I would say, just talk to your child, read a lot, do interesting things and puzzles etc. My dc have done both types of exam, so I don't have a particular axe to grind. Where I live, it is not that uncommon for a few children in each prep school class to transfer to state sector at secondary, just because they can travel further, may have moved into the area mid year and missed the application date, circumstances have changed over the last 7 years, neighbours kids have gone to the local state school and done really well, etc etc. I suppose she might feel left out by having lots more free time and fun in her life but......it is a string out and stressful business. You will probably have a finite amount of time/energy to research and do open days and so on. Conserve it and use it wisely.

Strung, not string!

The modus operandi would be to just shove her out of the car with a pencil and a water bottle on test day.

So no pre-visiting, pre-hyping, or preparation beyond her (very on-the ball) prep school normal timetable.

However - presumably at interview they would ask 'So why do you want to come to this school' - and Dd would be like 'Whaa? Where am I, anyway?'

• which presumably won't go down well with admissions tutors!

Are the school tours etc a compulsory part of the process? Is it possible to do this as a purely intellectual exercise?

When we were visiting private schools, we were given information packs, with numbered and dated application forms, so they should know "which open day we attended" - important to show you have really researched the school and know that you think the school will fit your child!

Ds was not asked why he was applying for the schools, and why he wanted to come! (I reckon they know it is the parents deciding!) He was shown images of art and asked to talk about the art work, the artists and the period, he was quizzed on history related curriculum and had to discuss the Spanish Armada!

In addition to open day, they had "exploration days", spending an after noon doing a Library/Sports/Music challenge - all part of the evaluation to see the child in a group setting doing learning activities. Or take part in lessons, such as Geography and Mandarin.

That was in addition to the exams, which were English and Maths btw.

Oh, and some verbal and non verbal reasoning.

So were they effectively 'selling' the school to your DS?

Or was it on a par to e.g. playing a football match 'away' at another school?

I think Open Day was more of a sales pitch. A speak by the Head, and then a tour around the premises where the kids got to explore biology, chemistry, etc in action, see all the departments and the facilities.
After you had made your actual application and put the application fee down, he was then invited back to spend time at the school with the other applicants. At Emmanuel they closed the application list at 500 applications, so if you applied after the cap you would not get considered.
I dont think it was like an away match, it was more like sports lessons and game play, exploring music together, etc. The library challenge was related to English literature.

There were several threads in the Secondary Education topic running between October last year and March discussing the interviews and open days at various schools, so could be worth having a look.

OP, our DD sat for a grammar school, a highly selective independent and a barely-selective independent.

She sat the first because I was having a wobble about travel to the second. She sat the second because it is considered the best school for girls in these parts. She sat the third as an insurance.

She was offered all three. However, having spent time at all three she was adamant she wanted to attend no.3. Absolutely adamant.

So that's where she goes. And it's been the best choice we could ever have made. But it really wasn't on our radar.

So the moral is be very careful about sitting for schools you cannot send her to!!!