Viewing secondary schools - what do I need to ask/think about?

[PassTheTwiglets]

About to start the rounds of looking at secondary schools - will obviously look at Ofsted and results but what else should I be thinking about? Any particular questions to ask?

DD has had a tough old time at primary and she's a sensitive little soul, so pastoral care is my main concern. (You can find out all you need to know about how well the school performs by looking at their GCSE results, yes?)

When are you meant to do secondary school open day visits? Have suddenly cottoned on to the fact that this time next year I'll be applying for DSs place (has just started year 5) so are you meant to start visiting now?

No grammar schools or entrance exams here which makes it a bit easier and the school we are currently in catchment for seems v good but I do feel I should do some visiting (we are nearer to several other schools but here there are very defined catchments)

First of all, try to visit on a "normal" school day rather than just the open day- that way you get a real feel for the normal atmosphere in the school. Do the students seem engaged in class? The way pupils behave towards each other as well as to adults/ teachers when moving between classes can be a great indicator of the pastoral care underscoring the school.
Ask about the bullying policy, also any buddy system for new / younger pupils- what support is there for pupils by way of a class teacher or tutor overseeing their studies and progress.

This is all fabulous, thank you! Keep 'em coming :)

I thought about visiting in Y5 but we were strongly discouraged from visiting early some schools and then I decided that a lot could change in a year anyway.

3Nations, when you say "when moving between classes" do you mean literally when going from one classroom to another?

DD1 has just started year 10.

Obvious ones, depending on your priorities

• results v 'whole child' balance
• are they good with high / middle / low achievers (depending on your child)
• pastoral care
• sport/drama/music etc if of special interest
• views on homework

Some less obvious ones

• do they stream (band for all subjects) or set (for individual subjects), and when. (I would not be happy with mixed ability maths for first 2 years for example)
• who gets to do triple science GCSE
• what is the first language studied, when do they start a second one
• can you see this years option blocks for GCSE? (yes they will change, but will give you an idea of range of subjects on offer and flexibility of choice)
• how are staff contacted if there is an issue

Feel of the place
e.g: tidy, clinical, run down, colourful, work on display, scruffy pupils, neat freaks, recently redecorated.

Some great ones there, TeenAndTween! Can I ask why you say that about maths for first 2 years?

If you have strong views on freedom of expression for your little darling, don't choose a school with a very strict uniform policy, then complain when said DC is sent home to buy new trousers/grow out hair/remove false eyelashes. like some recent stories

Avoid any schools like I read about on here with bizarre GCSE set ups where they sit some in Y9, some in Y10 and some in Y11. Early entry is usually a bad idea.

If DC is less academically minded, look for a school with good vocational courses, links to colleges for mechanics, hairdressing, catering etc.

Park outside at kicking out time on a normal day and 'feel the vibe' : try not to be scared by the size of them - year 11 boys are HUGE - and it WILL be chaotic
but is it happy chaotic
are the staff there
are they polite to you and to each other

if you pop in to pick up a leaflet, is the noise (and there will be lots) happy noise or is there an 'edge'
do the kids step aside to let you pass and hold doors?

if you feel comfortable with the feeling, then the rest starts to fall into place

(mine are year 11 and year 9 BTW)

Do look at their admissions criteria carefully now, and ask if there are any changes afoot. You need to use your choices wisely - a balance of 'the school/s we really like but might be a long shot" and "should get a place here come what may".

If they are partly selective, make sure you really do understand the rules for those places.

Not everyone in practice gets much choice, or has an option with the ethos they prefer, in which case it becomes finding the one which is least bad.

And do ask any parents you know with DC already at the school what they
like best about it, and what one thing they would change if they could. Worth asking any pupil tour guides or staff you get hold of one-to-one those questions too.

Agree totally about the 'feeling'. I walked into DD1's school and thought 'wow. YES. This is the place for DD1'.

By contrast, another place had all the joie de vivre of a high security prison...

Oh, and it's interesting to check out the kids who are showing you round. Are they ebullient, or cowed? When you ask them 'tell me your top favourite thing and your least favourite thing about your school' do they answer with disarming honesty, or do they look anxiously around to see if they are giving the 'correct' answer? Do they fill you with cheery anticipation that your child could become like them, or horrified dread?

A couple of questions you may ask when the current pupils guide you on tours:

"How does the school deal with bullying" - The answer might also tell you if bullying is rife...

"How do you like the food?" - We learnt that one school served chips with every meal, and upon looking at the students more closely, this was not a surprise as 70% of them would be classified obese.

"What do you like best about your school?"

followed by:

"What do you like the least?" One pupil openly told me "I dont know what to say, they did not ask me to prepare for this question".

We found it more revealing to talk to the students, than to talk to the staff who had years of experience of selling their schools.

(I mentioned mixed ability maths as an extreme example, because a few schools seem to not believe in setting anything for ages. I struggle to comprehend how a school can teach maths to level 6 pupils in the same class as level 3 ones. I think it is easier for, say, history.)

Also ask about fluidity in setting. Some schools seem to set and then you are stuck there. Others re-evaluate termly.

Ah, gotcha. Yes, that makes sense. Very good point about re-evaluating sets, will def add that to the list. I also love the tip about watching at the end of the day as the kids leave!

When looking at results dig deeper than the headline figures - student achievement versus capability/predicted grades and the breakdown within each boundary are both good indicators of true achievement. 90% A-C may sound good but if the majority are Cs rather than As/As or students are achieving Cs when predicted As then there may be issues. Schools will spin results/Ofsted findings to their advantage and may be hiding something underneath.

Also be wary of what you are told by staff - generally all have been very well briefed beforehand about the 'party line' and will be very wary of deviating from it, particularly if SLT are around. Speak to students and current parents if you can, they may be more open and honest.

Visiting on a 'normal' day is good if it is at all possible, you will get a much more honest picture. Remember open days/evenings are a sales talk at the end of the day and keep this in mind - 'what is the worst thing about the school?' can be a good question for staff and SLT as well, the range of answers you receive can be very revealing!

Penguin, that is fabulously helpful about the results, thanks so much.

Totally agree with all above advice. Visit on open day & if impressed ask if can revisit during a normal school day so can see kids in class. Any sch not willing to do that I would be wary of.
Consider schools specialist area , my Ds loves maths , music & sport , if can tick 1 or 2 of those boxes then great.
Nothing better than talking to the kids or hanging outside in morning or after school to see outside behaviour.
Most importantly don't stress , somehow it all works out ok , seems so daunting but will be fine.
Finally don't just look at results , secondary sch should also help prepare our kids to develop into well balanced happy young adults. We missed a grammar in S London by 3 places , he went to our 2nd choice and is happy a Larry and academically achieving

Thanks Hobbit. The schools I'm looking at have open evenings and also tours during the day, where you can see the school on a normal day. But that's still not going to be a true picture of what it's like...

Yes, I'm definitely not going to go on just results - pastoral care is my main concern but I didn't really have any idea how to find out what that is really like, rather than just listening to the party line about it.

I would not be wary of a school that does not offer tours on a non-open day - in a popular school that could be seriously disruptive. I found school time open days quite revealing though - if they were putting on a glossy, slick performance, they hadn't told the staff and students .

Ask what happens if someone gets teased in year 7, how long their homework takes them (ask several children this as just one answer may just tell you something about that child), and notice how the children respond to staff pleasantries.

Be prepared to see the best in the teenagers you meet - they are mostly lovely and can say some very funny things, even on open days.

I agree with looking hard at results, they do matter, and good ones for all ability groups are a sign the school can do something well. The headline A*-C figure is pretty irrelevant.

I am not sure there is a way of finding out lots about pastoral care because it is quite hard to phrase questions to to the children showing you round - for all you know, they may have been bullied and you should not be asking things that are too personal anyway. But tune your radar into the feel of the place as others have said and the relationships between staff and kids

More good ones there, tired, thanks! What do you mean about how children react to staff pleasantries though? Do you mean that if the staff are friendly and chartty to them and they look taken aback it means the staff aren't usually like that?

pastoral care:

• you could ask the children who they would turn to if there was a problem (should be a variety of options: tutor, head of year, learning support etc)
• find out if there is a 'safe place' to go at lunchtimes (eg library)
• we asked about instances of anorexia and teen pregnancy
• look at exclusion rates and perhaps ask about y10/11 'drop out' rates if you can. as school with high exclusions or drop outs may not have good care

Taken aback, horrified, yes exactly. I found happy trivial conversations about lost jumpers or homework most reassuring and think good pastoral care is easier to deliver in a school whose size makes happy trivial conversations a regular event.

There are some excellent questions on this thread.

I think that looking at the general enthusiam of the children is important. One school we went to had hardly any children on open evening because none of them wanted to come in. A neighbouring school seemed to have every school in the school and it was hard to move for the sheer number of kids.

I think that talking to the children reveals a lot about their school. It is interesting to see whether the children are hand picked or whether they allow the low ablity children to take parents round. One school that we were impressed with allowed the children who were in a unit for chidlren with speech and language difficulties to show the parents round. (In partnership with a child who hasn't got learning difficulties.)

If you want to know about pastoral care, Ofsted report covers this, but it depends how recent it is. At the open evening, seek out the Head of Year for Year 7, or who ever will be responsible for DS' care, and see what you think of them.
You want to know about progress, as well as raw exam results - www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/ tells you this.
The website www.how-to-choose-a-school.org/ is not-for-profit, and goes through everything you need to know about choosing a secondary school.