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Secondary education

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Is it usual to need a grade A GCSE to do A level maths now?

435 replies

Jella2u · 23/08/2013 16:59

Disappointment here too. Son has got 10 GCSE's grade A-C. So what's the prob? You have no prob! Yes I do!!!
He got a grade B, yes that's right, B for Bertie for Maths. The school (which is a comprehensive turned Academy ) will let him do his Physics, Chemistry and Biology, but not Maths for which they say a Grade A is required unless you've clocked up a total of 224 points between the last 2 module papers. Unfortunately his tally was 205. Husband went up suited and booted to the school this morning to plead son's case. Phoned us this afternoon - no go. Have said this to all who got a B. So nothing personal there.
Have tried to contact other schools this afternoon. Needless to say all are shut. Local Authority very helpful and recommended emailing. Are schools running a clearing system that I don't know about? Do tell.
School did offer Statistics as a replacement this morning, but by this afternoon that was off the menu as no-one wants to do it. There are 7 pupils in this maths grade B situation who want to do A level Maths. Strangely the school says Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Maths are the most difficult subjects. So they might be for most people, but what if your child is the one that has had to struggle with French, Music, English Language and bid their time to do the supposed hard four?
We feel he needs A level maths to support science subjects.
Unfortunately, I said we would be back with an answer as to taking up a place with some sort of substitute for Maths before term starts. Every chance if I can't get something sorted fast he will be a well educated NEET!!!
All ideas welcome. Thanks in advance.

OP posts:
ClayDavis · 25/08/2013 13:06

Cross posts, OP. You say he has science subjects in mind. Does he know exactly what he wants to do at university or where he wants to do it?

noblegiraffe · 25/08/2013 13:07

One thing's for sure though - he can't do absolutely no maths work for two years before uni with science subjects in mind

You are absolutely correct here. It is a big problem in maths sixth form education. I think the possible plan is to introduce new qualifications to cover students for whom A-level is unsuitable, and make some sort of maths study compulsory post-16.

englishteacher78 · 25/08/2013 13:16

Jella - Am I understanding you correctly that the school makes them choose A Levels based on blocks of options? If so, that's awful!

ClayDavis · 25/08/2013 13:24

I'm primary trained so this is a bit out of my comfort zone. But if you're willing to tutor him would it work if you covered the gaps from GCSE and then started on the AS level, perhaps doing it over two years. It would rule out engineering but might not rule out other science degrees and ensure that he was still doing some maths.

noblegiraffe · 25/08/2013 13:29

Jella usually, if the student is capable of the harder work and has demonstrated mastery of the easier work, they would be moved up a set and given it. It isn't in the school's interests to cap grade potential at too low a level (this shows in value added in the league tables).

Why wasn't your son moved up a set? Did his results not merit it?

You also need to be aware that what you think is a job done when teaching your DS hard topics, isn't that straightforward. Sine and cosine rule might be 'easy peasy' when being taught a lesson on the sine and cosine rule. Many students could be drilled into correctly substituting numbers into a clearly given formula in a lesson which by its title tells them that they need the sine or cosine rule. Give them an exam which at some point contains a cosine rule question, not clearly signposted, in an unfamiliar context that perhaps requires a rearrangement or use of another angle rule to start and they don't spot it, don't know where to start or just make a complete hash of it.

Jella2u · 25/08/2013 13:43

Yes, the subjects are chosen in blocks. It has been this way at the school for some years. It makes it easy for the staff. There are more than 1500 students on site.

I think the 6th form has about 200 plus places. Entry is open at 6th form, so some places go to private school pupils fleeing from fees and others from pupils that are from the super-grammars (super-grammars take pupils from way way out of the local area to get results up). Presumably some of their grades are not predicted as A or A*. It would look better for them to get good grades from a comp rather than a super-grammar, but do wonder if anyone would do that. Were they encouraged to go?

Those that are definitely not going to make the cut, apparently get a letter introducing them to the local college. Don't get me wrong they do do BTEC at the school. Had no idea about that until we had heard other students had the letter.

OP posts:
Cherrypi · 25/08/2013 13:48

I think he should do maths with you as it is a fascinating, creative and challenging subject. There is plenty of youtube videos he can watch to help top up his knowledge. He will probably only end up with a D though.

Jella2u · 25/08/2013 13:50

Hear what you say noblegiraffe.

Son had no difficulty in rearranging and manipulating formula once shown by me. Think that's why he got the A* in Physics in Additional Science. He also got an A for Chemistry and just missed the A in Biology. Clearly he is totally unteachable.

Did ask for him to be moved up a set in Maths, but the same teacher who said "We don't teach the whole book" said she was happy with where he was. Well as he did so badly with his 300 points and 113 in Paper 3 she must have been right.

OP posts:
englishteacher78 · 25/08/2013 13:50

My sixthform isn't much different in size to that and they make their options and then we arrange the blocks - most get their choices (a few don't get their first choices at GCSE but never heard of an A Level student not getting their original choices).
I think it would be easier for the teachers to have students who wanted to do their subject rather than just because it was the best of a bad bunch! Angry

Lottiedoubtie · 25/08/2013 14:13

Instead he is now putting in to take Sociology with Criminality. As this course only requires a grade C English Language surely it was supplied to and taken up by the school as that "great little filler". Anyway son is quite looking forward as it comes across as quite a topical subject. It has an advantage in that it reinforces essay skills.

The academic snobbery here is breathtaking. So all the C grade students are just having their time filled?

Your son got a B. A good mark. Better than the national average.

He wasn't moved up a set because the teacher didnt think he was capable.

You think he is.

But even with your expert coaching he didn't qualify for A level maths.

And yet still you think the teacher is in some way disadvantaging him.

Let it go, and have some respect for your son. Allow him to take an appropriate course. One that he is really involved in.

HisMum4now · 25/08/2013 14:23

OP, are you clear on what your DS strengths and weaknesses are? And how his strengths fit with potential career options and his A level choices?

I am struggling to position someone excellent in Physics, mediocre in maths and studying sociology...

bruffin · 25/08/2013 14:37

At a lot of schools they wont let you take Physics without taking maths along side it.

Chopchopbusybusy · 25/08/2013 14:55

Am I right in thinking your DS took core science and additional science? What were his overall grades for those? Is it you who is pushing him or does he actually want to do engineering?

noblegiraffe · 25/08/2013 15:01

Any student now picking subjects would be restricted in what choices they can make by the option blocks on the timetable. The timetable is set and the teachers allocated so it would be way too late now to make requests.

My school asks for student subject choices when they apply for sixth form (so by last Christmas) and they arrange the option blocks based on what those students what.

daphnedill · 25/08/2013 15:34

I might be missing something somewhere, but why doesn't the OP just tell the school what she's doing? It would seem more honest and positive than "pretending" to do a fourth AS.

My dd started off doing AS English Lit, History, Maths and Biology (and General Studies which everybody had to do). I never really undestood why she opted for Biology at the last moment (switching from Economics), but there you go!

She had an "A" in GCSE Maths, but gave up before Christmas, because she just didn't get it, so she was only doing three subjects for most of Year 12. The school had no problem with this, although the pressure was then on to do well in Biology (which she didn't). We then had a huge panic deciding what to do. In the end she did AS and A2 Economics in one year and achieved a "B".

She was fine in English and History, but the third subject was really touch and go. The school wrote her a good reference, explaining that she'd made the wrong choices, but was working really hard to catch up blah blah! She's now going into her final year at a RG uni studying History and Economics.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's well worth getting the school onside, rather than antagonising them.

HisMum4now · 25/08/2013 16:04

OP, the point is not what the school would do, but for you to get to the bottom of what is right for your DS. After a ?wobble? you need to re-examine and come to a coherent view of what your DS strengths and weaknesses are. Three A level sciences are very hard to do. Poor exam results do not happen just because DSs are "not understanding" or "sloppy". Teaching comes into it as well, and you have not yet examined the issue of the learning style. Whatever went wrong with maths may surface again when he will be overstretched in 3 sciences and a humanity subject. You may get more surprises. You need to understand why he didn't progress faster in maths in that particular learning environment. I think you need to dig a few floors deeper and revisit all his subjects before drawing a conclusion. Are English and essay based subjects his real strengths or indeed weaknesses? How does it show? Why is he better at Physics than at Biology (sorry if it?s the other way around)? And indeed working together with the school could help understanding the picture. You may still conclude that he is capable to do maths and you will have to do something about that, but if not, you should be prepared to take the consequences

CaptainJamesTKirk · 25/08/2013 16:11

Thank you for clarifying my questions. It really didn't seem this complicated 20 years ago. Admittedly I was top set in everything but I'm sure all sets took the same exam and had the opportunity at least to achieve a better grade. Rather than only be taught up to a C grade level and then not be able to achieve higher.
I really didn't know this is how schools work, I personally feel that this is penalising because children are capable of great things sometimes and should be given the opportunity by not teaching them surely that's failing them. I'm going to be a nightmare parent when my 3 year old goes to school I can tell that now. :(

OP I'm a physicist and trust me if he wants to enter any physics or engineering related profession he will need A level Maths so you're going to have to find another way.

CaptainJamesTKirk · 25/08/2013 16:15

My DH tells me this was also the case 20 years ago. How did I not know that?

PickleFish · 25/08/2013 16:23

But, Captain, I have also taught students who have been 'dragged' through a curriculum that they were clearly not ready for - schools that have mixed ability maths classes or parents who insisted their child must be taught the whole syllabus, etc., and in several cases, that failed the children as much as the opposite. They did not understand that level work, but there also wasn't the time to spend going over the real basics that they did need, so in the end they came out with nothing. They would have been better not doing some of the highest level topics, and instead really solidifying things like fractions.

On the other hand, those mixed classes where everyone gets taught everything so that they have the potential to achieve higher, has worked for some, particularly those who didn't shine initially but got to grips with it later (either maturing later, or just starting to work hard at that point).

And I've also had students failed by the classes that don't teach everything, because in some cases, those children could have succeeded in the topics with a bit of pushing and earlier hard work. they have come for extra lessons near the end, having finally realised they need maths, or want to do it, or things have clicked or whatever, but they are stuck in a set that only teaches them up to B grade work. This tends to be quite a last minute thing though, as schools generally move them up sooner if it seems like it's going to be possible - and in the case of the children I know, they fully accepted that it was their responsibility for not having worked hard sooner, rather than the school holding them back.

So it is quite hard to know how to best meet the needs of all.

Even with a poor teacher, though, a real mathematician should find the work fairly straightforward because it just fits together and makes sense. There should be no reason not to be getting all the basics right. Specific topics for A or A grades, like sine rule etc, are different, and if a child hasn't been taught those then that could be an explanation for not getting the higher grades, but really if someone is not finding maths almost trivially easy through GCSE, they will struggle a lot with A-level. It doesn't mean getting an A or A at gCSE, as some very able mathematicians don't - through being careless, finding it almost too easy to bother with, not showing enough work, and other exam-strategy problems (that do need to be worked on), but if they aren't finding the work/concepts itself very easy, then A-level will be a challenge. In particular, the unstructured, multi-step problems at the end of GCSE papers, where they have to incorporate ideas from a couple of different topics and work out what is needed, are things that they should enjoy the challenge of.

CaptainJamesTKirk · 25/08/2013 16:34

I do see your point but I can't help feeling that it's failing a child not to teach them everything because someone has decided they're not capable of learning it. Anyway this is derailing the post somewhat. Sorry, I just didn't know this was how it worked. Even though apparently it worked this way 20 years ago too. I think also my education was primarily grammar school and therefore there was less of a discrepancy academically in a grammar school class of 20 years ago, to a comprehensive now.

Waspie · 25/08/2013 16:40

I discussed this subject with DP and BIL at lunch today. DP got A grades at A level maths and physics and BIL also has a double first in Physics and Maths from Cambridge (just establishing credentials!) And they are certain that your son will be at a disadvantage studying physics if he isn't studying maths.

The physics teacher will assume knowledge of the maths elements. For this reason alone I think that perhaps he should review his A level choices, or stick to your plan to take A level maths whichever way is possible.

HisMum4now · 25/08/2013 16:40

Specific topics for A or A grades, like sine rule etc, are different, and if a child hasn't been taught those then that could be an explanation for not getting the higher grades, but really if someone is not finding maths almost trivially easy through GCSE, they will struggle a lot with A-level. It doesn't mean getting an A or A at gCSE, as some very able mathematicians don't - through being careless, finding it almost too easy to bother with, not showing enough work, and other exam-strategy problems (that do need to be worked on), but if they aren't finding the work/concepts itself very easy, then A-level will be a challenge. In particular, the unstructured, multi-step problems at the end of GCSE papers, where they have to incorporate ideas from a couple of different topics and work out what is needed, are things that they should enjoy the challenge of.

These are all excellent clues for the alternative explanations and things you need to look for, OP. Silly mistakes are not necessarily results of being careless or sloppy. You need to understand your DS's learning style. The implications of not being taught the topics or struggling with the concepts are very different.

PickleFish · 25/08/2013 16:54

I do see your point but I can't help feeling that it's failing a child not to teach them everything because someone has decided they're not capable of learning it.

But it isn't really 'someone deciding they aren't capable of learning it' - more that, at this moment, they aren't in a position to learn those topics before the date of a particular exam, because they haven't covered the work that leads up to it or haven't got those concepts solidly yet. It isn't saying that at some future time they wouldn't be able to learn it, but you need to build on earlier work. Just saying 'well so-and-so is in year 11, so must be taught sine rule so he has a chance of getting A on his exam', when really he needs to get basic algebra sorted first, isn't going to help, because as a result, he may leave with confidence in neither algebra nor sine rule. By all means, if someone looks like they are doing well on the earlier material, give them the chance to learn the harder stuff - but most schools DO do that, through setting and reviewing sets. The student also has to play a part in that, by working and showing that they are working, in plenty of time to get into the right sets. They might be very capable, but if they give no indication of this, then the school isn't going to give them that chance.

Some students go back and do a higher level paper after foundation, if they have suddenly found their feet with maths, and there's nothing wrong with that. Or go on to further qualifications, too. It is less likely, because in my experience, the sort of intuitive maths ability that helps for advanced maths tends to show itself relatively early, but it's not unheard of that someone really decides that's what they want to do and applies themselves later on to learning some of the trickier and less intuitive concepts that they need for their A or A*.

noblegiraffe · 25/08/2013 17:02

Captain actually in maths things are now the best they have ever been in terms of grade caps. Back in the O-level days it was decided early on that you were doing CSE or O-level and as they were different courses, switching between the two would be very difficult. Then GCSE had three tiers and up till a few years ago, Foundation tier was capped at a D, those students didn't even have a hope of getting a C, so very demotivating. Now Foundation students can get a C, and tier of entry doesn't need to be decided till the last minute so students can easily switch tiers.

Actually, that's not completely true, modular maths where you could be entered for different tiers for different modules was the most flexible. But things are still better than 20 years ago!

I find that people who don't understand how this can be fair were top set kids. Maths has to be tiered, it would be just horrible for an F grade student to be given the same exam as an A* student, and a waste of time for the more able.

GCSE maths is a cumulation of all the work covered since primary school. Expecting that all children be taught exactly the same content in that time, and all be able to understand it, is just not realistic. Obviously some students will have to cover less to fully understand the work they have studied as they aren't as quick as the more able.

Mumzy · 25/08/2013 17:09

Picking up the point whether gcse maths is good preparation for the Alevel. It does seem to be a very different exam to Olevel maths. Gcse maths seems to have lots of questions about r everyday situations : percentages probability etc whereas Olevel maths was a lot more pure: algebra, trigonometry calculus etc which might explain why the step up from o to a level maths wasn't so great.

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