Is it usual to need a grade A GCSE to do A level maths now?

[Jella2u]

Disappointment here too. Son has got 10 GCSE's grade A-C. So what's the prob? You have no prob! Yes I do!!!
He got a grade B, yes that's right, B for Bertie for Maths. The school (which is a comprehensive turned Academy ) will let him do his Physics, Chemistry and Biology, but not Maths for which they say a Grade A is required unless you've clocked up a total of 224 points between the last 2 module papers. Unfortunately his tally was 205. Husband went up suited and booted to the school this morning to plead son's case. Phoned us this afternoon - no go. Have said this to all who got a B. So nothing personal there.
Have tried to contact other schools this afternoon. Needless to say all are shut. Local Authority very helpful and recommended emailing. Are schools running a clearing system that I don't know about? Do tell.
School did offer Statistics as a replacement this morning, but by this afternoon that was off the menu as no-one wants to do it. There are 7 pupils in this maths grade B situation who want to do A level Maths. Strangely the school says Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Maths are the most difficult subjects. So they might be for most people, but what if your child is the one that has had to struggle with French, Music, English Language and bid their time to do the supposed hard four?
We feel he needs A level maths to support science subjects.
Unfortunately, I said we would be back with an answer as to taking up a place with some sort of substitute for Maths before term starts. Every chance if I can't get something sorted fast he will be a well educated NEET!!!
All ideas welcome. Thanks in advance.

I am a maths teacher, I find that too many parents think that if their daughter/son just works harder, then maths will be passable.

And yet the stats show otherwise.

To study maths beyond (I)GCSE a student needs a certain aptitude, an innate spark of creativity that is not required at (I)GCSE level.

I have taught so many students who work REALLY hard, but just do not have the math skills to progress. It is heart breaking to see them not reaping any reward for their efforts.

If his B was an exam blip then maybe he will cope, but A Level Maths is a massive amount of work. My DD got an A at Int 2 Maths ( GCSE equivalent) but found Maths AS very difficult. She coped will with her option subject ( Decision Maths) and got an A in that module, but scored only C and E in C1 and C2. However, she re-sat the C1 and C2 modules this summer along with Mechanics and the two A2 core subjects C3 and C4 and managed an A- infact only a few marks away from an A*.

She struggled with the jump from GCSE level to that required at A Level even though she was a good mathmetician. She says don't underestimate the amount of work you are required to do in private study for maths- easily took her twice as long each week as her other subjects ( a language and art).And she says she doesn't think it was just "hard work" which got her through as there were others in her year who worked harder and still got Ds and Es at A Level. She was good at maths, but it took her a while to get away from the almost rote learning style of lower level maths.

HisMum4now interesting paper, thanks for posting the link

Another vote for saying that if the best your DS can achieve at GCSE is a B, then he will not be able to cope with AS Maths. The jump to AS from GCSE is huge, both in terms of content and quantity. My DD is at the end of her AS year, does Maths and has found it really hard. I should add she had the free standing maths qualification in year 11 too.

I think a lot depends on why he got a B.

Did he not understand some of the concepts, or was he sloppy?

If he lacked understanding, that does not bode well for his potential in maths. If he was just sloppy, he should improve with maturity and motivation.

Antracite - that seems to me to be a crucial question but I have asked the OP a couple of times whether the B was a blip or whether he was predicated a B throughout Year 11.

Hi Op. as suggested earlier, get DS to try the Haydon maths paper and also download the edexcel level 3 algebra sample paper. If he can do these, then that would be an indication that he may be ok for AS level. Otherwise explore which other subjects he would do well in. My friends DD has just got a U in AS maths :(

DS2 was top set maths at GCSE & got an A, but was already finding it much tougher than it used to be, & was delighted to drop it after that

but they all got put in for some kind of extension paper as well (this was in 2009) for which he got a massive U, & a lot of them found it very hard.

I think the plan is doomed to failure tbh but my suggestion if you are attempting this would be that if next week is a clear week you make a start on C1 and see how much if it you can cover off in a week of solid work and what he can achieve on a past paper by the end of it. My DS1 reckons most of C1 had already been covered in Y11 so it should be an easy start. You'll have far more free time next week than once he starts back and is doing 5 AS levels so I think you could use the time to see if the plan is in any way realistic.

Also I would have thought M1 would be way more useful than S1 for a prospective engineer if you can't find out what the school do in y12 to answer your question up thread.

Felt the need to reply after months of agonising whether to try and dissuade DD1 from taking AS maths with a mid-A GCSE grade (early sitting).

We did the rounds of 7 sixth forms, the prospectus for 2 stated that B from a higher paper was acceptable. But on speaking to the maths departments, gleaned that the clause was only there to allow for an A/A student having a slip up on the day. All the others required A for Maths, and all but one required A for FM.

In the end, I made a list of pros and cons (below), have not tried to talk her out of it, and she will be taking it.

PROS
GCSE teacher thinks she is capable
Much lower mark on easier non-calculator paper
Immature and sloppy
Difficulty remembering methods, theorems - hence marks list
Understands ALL the GCSE topics,
Would struggle much more with a written subject
It will support her Physics A level
She only plans to take it to AS, unless it goes exceptionally well (and something else goes exceptionally bad)
I have the mathematical knowledge to help her understand where she is going wrong.
She recognises very quickly when she is struggling and doesn't bury her head in the sand.
She expects it to be difficult, so not going in with rosé tinted specs.

CONS
She doesn't particularly enjoy maths
She doesn't specifically NEED maths, although core subject advisable
Chosen as expects it to be easier than remaining options, so the best of a bad bunch.
Her other 3 subjects are 'hard'.
She has the added pressure of changing schools and leaving all her friends behind.

I'm not saying she has made the right decision - but she has definitely not taken it lightly, and no teacher has ever advised her not to do it.

Incidentally, with sciences being seen as the hardest, I agree with the poster earlier that says it depends how your brain is wired.

Also been told at 6th form open evenings (by science teachers) that sciences are the least step up from GCSE to AS, with Physics being the least. May depend on GCSE exam board.

OP, I just wanted to add a word of support to you in keeping faith in your DS and being resourceful at helping him. Coming from the experience of parent of SN DS, this is the only way, though your circumstances are different. You are obviously seeking information and diverse opinions on the matter and you need to get to the bottom of what is going on. Hellbell's advice is very good. Ultimately your support will help him to achieve his potential and get where he needs to be in life. Sometimes it may take an alternative route. It's not a matter for MN vote as you already made clear.

I got a grade B for GCSE maths. I attempted A level. Was lost at the first lesson.

Because maths GCSE was a piece of cake (played truant almost all of my GCSE days and taught myself whole curriculum in the week before the exam) but A-level was a massive jump.

I would also caution against the opinions that some subjects are easy fillers. The reasons why some subjects are easy to some DC might not apply to your DS, so he may walk into a trap. The DS of a friend of mine graduated successfully as an engineer this year. As part of his degree he taken a little a marketing course because his peers found it to be an easy kill. He nearly failed in marketing despite of working hard. Unlike his peers he found maths driven subjects much easier than the woolly ones. The style of the exam also plays a role. So indeed, it all depends on the way the brain is wired.

OP, you really need to consider very carefully what you're doing. 5 A levels is a lot of work. I know plenty of people with similar GCSE grades to your son who found 4 AS levels too many and dropped down to 3 within weeks of starting 6th form.
However, if your son truly wants to do maths A level, then I think the best thing you can do for him is to put away the A level textbooks completely. Get the GCSE ones back out, spend as much time as you can going through everything with him. Then before A level teaching starts, sit him down with a GCSE past paper and let him do it in exam conditions.
If he is good at maths, and already at a B grade, it shouldn't be beyond him to get to an A grade with a few weeks of intense teaching. If he can get there, talk to the school, explain and maybe they''ll let him join the class. If he can't get to A grade at GCSE within a few weeks, I honestly think he either doesn't have the ability, or is just so far behind that you won't have time to cover the AS syllabus in time - he needs to be very sure of GCSE before he can even attempt it.

With regards to module choice, he would be best to sit both M1 and M2 if he's going to try engineering without further maths, as its the mechanics which is most important. These will also help a lot with physics A level.
Don't put him in for 5 AS levels - either convince school to teach him maths or ask that he only sit 3 AS levels through school. 5 is too many for all but the most driven and brightest students.

And check UCAS course requirements before you completely dismiss further maths. Many courses also require certain GCSE grades, some specify maths modules for engineering if further maths isn't offered (normally both mechanics modules)

Best of luck to you whatever you decide to do.

Op, I think this was mentioned upthread, but can I just restate, your DS will need to sit Core 1, core 2 and either mech 1 or Stats1 next summer. January exams are now gone.
So 3 extra exams on top of what he needs for his other 4 subjects.

My own DS took 5 AS levels, (maths, further maths, physics, chemistry and design tech) but he achieved A* at GCSE for each subject. It was a massive amount of work, and of course he benefitted from taking some of the exams in January.

He is due to start a masters engineering degree next month at a top 10 Uni. When applying he got 5 offers in the range A*AA - AAB. All required maths and physics at A2.
Plus, he will continue to study maths at a very high level for the next 4 years

A lot of unis will look at the engineering btec alongside A level maths. If your DS is set on engineering, this may be a more manageable route.
Either way, good luck, because honestly, he will need it.

I will say it can be done...in exceptional circumstances.

I got a C in GCSE, foundation level. I resat the higher level with an outstanding teacher. Got a B. I then went on to do AS when the AS was a stand alone course with its own syllabus. Got a B. I still found the a level tricky. But went on to do OKish a C.

I had excellent teachers.

I struggled in basic algebra which meant it took me longer and still does take me longer to rearrange and spot things.

But I am in my final year of maths/physics degree at the OU now.

I hear all you say.

My son was in the class where the girls shouted out "We don't need to do that - we only need a C".
The class where one teacher was very good and the other one was aided by the students calling out to help her get it right.
Yes there was one student who got an A*, but the kids joked that she probably was a Set 3 in China.
A couple of years ago I pointed out that it was impossible for students to get good grades if they had never been taught the work and that's where the remark "We don't teach the whole book" came from. This was when I knew I was on my own to get that grade up. I tried to give son's mate some help, but really it was too much on top of working with my own son. I feel bad about that.

Son had had 2 good teachers throughout the 5 years. The good one this year - too late and one who was there for about 6 months and had to move due to Husband's job.

Sorry to have angered a load of teachers, but if you had a bad dinner you'd send it back. Can't do that with what your child is given in education.

So you think all children could get an A in gcse maths with a good teacher? What an odd perspective. You have talked a lot about the teachers input, and the work you've done, but very little about your son's aptitude or opinions.

I don't think you've angered teachers it just seems you aren't hearing what teachers, or former students are almost unanimously saying. You seem to think passing A level maths is just a matter of being taught well?

I will add that students who have gained bronze and silver in the UK maths challenge still struggle with A level maths and I do think it could be due to several factors and teaching being one of those.

Scrazy Re the maths challenges, how much do they really relate to GCSE and/or A level maths? I always had the impression that they were more about having practiced those type of questions, a bit like NVR tests.

Admittedly it was a long time ago but I got a B at IGCSE Maths and then proceeded to get an A at Alevel. I feel it's unfair for the school to just assume that because you got a B you won't do well at it and therefore they won't give you the opportunity to try. Is it because they don't want their league tables to reflect possible low Alevel marks. As for the leap between the 2 levels, well there's always a leap between levels - just wait for university.

The maths teaching at my DS last school relied on the majority, reasonably motivated middle class intake. The teacher was unable to get round the desks because of being overweight and relied on checking with the top students they'd understood . As my DS missed nearly a term in Year 10 through serious illness, the November exam decision was a disaster ; he went from doing additional and being forecast A to getting a C, borderline B. Although he was planning Arts A levels, I ended up paying hundreds to a local college for support teaching. He got his A on Thursday. The local sixth form college seems to want at least Bs for most A levels, but says they discuss at registration, especially for double maths.
Maths is a tough subject but it is also often badly taught. My teachers at school were, frankly, weird, but it was an all girls school.

My DS always, and I mean always, got top in year in the Maths challenge and usually top in the school too - and it's a big school. He qualified for the following rounds too. He 'only' got an A at A'level maths and an A at further maths. Some of his friends who were never placed in the Maths challenges got A*'s.

The maths challenge is a different type of maths. My DS never practised for them and found them easy but he struggled with statistics.

I doubt the school has assumed. They'll have made the decision based on their previous data. It's in nobody's interest for the OP's DS to fail one of his A-levels. And the school do allow children with a B to take A-level maths, but the OP's DS hasn't met the criteria for that either.