Can 'teach first' really be doing this?

[Cathpot]

In our department at the moment is a very pleasant 21 year old who is on the teach first programme and doing some sort of research project for a week or so. She has a good degree and has signed up to the teach first programme to get into teaching. This summer she will get 6 weeks of training in how to teach, using I think at some point some summer school kids, then in September will be dropped into a difficult school (no choice of where to go) on a 2 year contract.

She is enthusiatic and bright and seems very keen and when I was talking to her I had to kept reminding myself not to look too shocked. She is going to stand up and teach her first proper class to her first proper group of probably very tricky teenagers on her first day in the job. This seems insane to me- how can this be working? How is this ok for her or the kids in her class? I am all for cutting down the college aspect of teacher training and getting students out into schools to work out how to do the job but it seem self evident that the PGCE year is essential to producing teachers who won't get eaten alive in tricky class rooms. She told me some schools have as many as 5 teachers from teach first at any one time and that if they dont stay on at the end of 2 years they just replace them with a new one. I can't really get past how insane this seems as an idea.

[chibi]

i don't think this is good enough. i think it gives children who are already getting a raw deal.from their education even more of a raw deal. i find it problematic on many levels.

i am bemused by your conviction that people can just move their children elsewhere if they don't like it. indeed, perhaps i could have them tutored at home by a governess.

clearly my distrust of teach first unhinges you, you seem to almost be taking it personally. odd.

[chibi]

indeed, those english/drama graduates could easily be teaching maths or physics

you are parodying yourself, surely

[SaturdaySuperstore]

"i am bemused by your conviction that people can just move their children elsewhere if they don't like it"

I am bemused by your misinterpretation. I said the exact opposite.

"clearly my distrust of teach first unhinges you, you seem to almost be taking it personally"

Er, no. You're making it personal. I'm sticking to the point.

[chibi]

sorry, i can just move my chldren elsewhere. why is that then? what make me different from everyone else who can't, then?

they aren't highly qualified. they may not have post secondary qualifications in what they will teach. they get brief training, then sole responsibility for classes. what's not to love?

[SaturdaySuperstore]

"indeed, those english/drama graduates could easily be teaching maths or physics"

No. We should have fewer english/drama graduates, and more maths/physics graduates.

Higher education should be funded on the basis of what the country needs.

[chibi]

what does that have to do with what we are talking about? surely that is a separate issue?

[chibi]

or maybe that is what teach first is meant to address retroactively-you got the wrong degree, so teach in something we need?

what better way to encourage future maths and physics graduates than to have them taught by someone who is only a month ahead of them in terms of subject knowledge

[morethanpotatoprints]

My PGCE meant jack and didn't prepare me for a room full of very difficult teenagers.
Yes, I was nearly eaten alive but lived to tell the tale.
It's sink or swim and best they find out straight away imo.
My first group consisted of young adults who just didn't want to be there. There was no respect for anyone in the room. Regular fights breaking out, throwing chairs, tipping up tables, swearing, blatantly calling friends on their mobiles. It was just like a zoo.

[SaturdaySuperstore]

"what does that have to do with what we are talking about?"

Because you were "outraged" that non-maths-specialists are teaching maths. They're doing that because there aren't enough maths specialists. Perhaps the school in question didn't need an English/Drama teacher. Perhaps they already had an outstanding one, and a queue at the door a mile long whenever they advertised for one.

It's quite simple. The country doesn't have enough Maths graduates, and those that do graduate in Maths have a wide range of career choices. If they do choose teaching then they are snapped up quickly, because they are highly sought after.

In contrast, the country has many more English graduates than it probably needs, and a large number of them go into teaching.

That is why your friend with the Maths/English degree ended up teaching maths.

[chibi]

the inadequacy of a pgce training doesn't justify an equally crappy training replacement

there is actually research and established good practice about how to train teachers effectively.

[chibi]

what makes an english/drama graduate an appropriate candidate for a maths teaching post?

do we really want the rationale for teacher recruitment to be 'ehhh we couldn't find anyone else'?

though as a slogan, it's certainly up there with 'qualifications aren't everything'

[chibi]

i was outraged, not 'outraged'. are you trying to belittle my posts, or are you unclear what these punctuation marks are for?

[SaturdaySuperstore]

"what makes an english/drama graduate an appropriate candidate for a maths teaching post?"

They're clearly not appropriate at all. However, if they're the only member of staff with a maths A Level then they're the best of a bad lot. If the only way a school can manage to attract staff members with a Maths A Level is via Teach First then that's desperately sad, but it's better than nothing.

[chibi]

another great slogan- it's better than nothing

this is doing a huge disservice to kids and teachers, we could be doing better

[Philoslothy]

Having looked at the TF website, the entry requirements are as follows:

2:1 degree
300 UCAS points at A Level (that's 3 Bs, if taken from 3 A Levels, though it doesn't specify the number of A levels)
A C grade in GCSE English & Maths

So any smuggery about "top" graduates is misplaced IMO

I was a teach first, most of us were from Oxbridge with a few from places like Imperial and quite a few of us had 1sts.

[Philoslothy]

About half of us are still teaching. I keep seeing a statistic on MN that about half of teachers leave within five years anyway.

[SaturdaySuperstore]

"are you trying to belittle my posts"
Nope. I was using quotation marks because I was quoting you. You're a little too sensitive!

I think we're broadly agreeing . We both think that kids should be taught maths by maths specialists.

Trouble is, you're blaming the fact that they're not on the wrong thing. It's not the fault of Teach First, its the fault of the entire education system ... a system that ultimately churns out too many Enlgish grads and not enough maths grads.

[morethanpotatoprints]

I was expected to teach Further Maths, I don't have a GCSE in Maths.
When I complained and explained I hadn't got a clue, my line manager told me to get the most experienced student to explain to the class.
I went to the union and got no help at all.
It was to cover mat leave so not even as if everything was done and it was just cover teaching, which imo still wouldn't be right.

This is happening in schools throughout the country and is nothing new.
I have posted about this before. There are people with Post Compulsory quals, no QTS or secondary qualifications teaching y7-11. They are employed in the 6th form but then have to teach other years.
Unions couldn't give a monkeys and the school tell you to leave if you don't like it.
I left, but several of my peers stayed and are teaching subjects and school years they are qualified to teach.

[chibi]

quite a few people training on other routes have similar qualifications to you, then

some teach first teachers will be amazing. i don't think it will be due to the training they get though. i just think we could do better

[chibi]

even if our education system churned out (grim phrase actually) an adequate number of maths/physics teachers, that would not make teach first a great way of training them to be teachers

[Philoslothy]

I am not making any claims about my personal qualifications and am not claiming to be better qualified than other teachers. I was just making the point that IME the Teach First candidates were significantly more qualified than the minimum quoted.

I think all teachers should have at least a 2:1 tbh and as far as I know while I have been a member of SLT we have not employed anyone who is not a subject specialist and who does not have at least 2:1. We also have a healthy spread of Oxbridge graduates and most of our staff are from top universities..

[HomeHelpMeGawd]

Chibi, your reasoning was that it could be deduced that TF wasn't the best method because it wasn't the dominant method. That is fallacious

Evil, the definition at matters isn't mine but the one TF uses. In practice, what it means is that people who have the wherewithal to get the most selective jobs in the graduate market join TF. People who wouldn't otherwise consider teaching. And quite a lot of them then stay in teaching, rather than bowing to the lure of mammon.

Chibi, qualifications aren't everything. Lol at you for believing they are. A Manichean view of the world is unhelpful to delivering better education, although it may help you avoid affronts to your dignity from having to recognise that a TF teacher could be good despite (gasp) not having a pgce, I admit. I guess the more nuanced version of my original statement would have been to say that the mentality behind TF is that quals matter, but that pedagogical quals are a lot less important than quals that show raw intellect and ability, and that the broader traits of good teachers can be assessed and developed by means other than a pgce.

[chibi]

no, that wasn't my reasoning. there are only a small cohort of school eligible to choose teach first anyway.

i object to teach first on many grounds, none of which are centered on how popular it is.

[okthen]

I was quite shocked at how, well, posh, the TF graduates in Tough Young Teachers are. I'm making assumptions, but I'd be surprised if they weren't largely private school/Oxbridge. If TF is about ending educational inequality, I would hope it would apply the same thinking to its own recruitment. Surely a role model they can relate/aspire to would inspire pupils in tough schools. I know it's not as simple as that...but I can imagine the kids I went to school with (inner city comp) switching off if faced with someone so alien from themselves. JP from Fresh Meat sprang to mind!

[chibi]

i am unsure as to how expecting a maths teacher to have studied maths beyond high school, and wanting them to know how to teach their subject effectively is an inappropriate expectation.

i am cheered by ypur optimism that a bright person can figure out both their subject and how to teach it as they go along.

what about the education of the children who are being taught by them while they figure it out? oh well, never mind, it isn't like they matter anyway, right?