Come and tell me some of the benefits for children in going to a grammar school

[piprabbit]

DD's school have suggested that she should sit the 11+ as she has the potential ability to go to a grammar school.

DH is not convinced that going to a grammar school will be especially beneficial for DD. I tend to think that it would probably be a Good Thing, but I don't have a cogent argument as to why it is a Good Thing.

Neither DH or I went to a grammar school, so it's all outside our experience.

Please can you tell me why going to grammar school is a Good Thing (assuming DD is capable of keeping up academically).

Thanks.

I think it mostly reflects the innate ability :-) Last time I looked at the value-added score for my dd1's grammar school, it was basically nothing - possibly half a grade for one gcse.

But she didn't go there for the results, but for the company :-)

Pip, what you need to do is find the schools on the DfE website here and compare the results for different groups of pupils - so what % of high, medium and low ability pupils does each school have, and what grades do they get?

It is a better means of comparison than top-level results alone, as these are often a reflection of the cohort and not of the school - it's not hard to get 100% A*-C if none of your pupils got lower than a Level 5 at the end of KS2, rather harder if 50% got less than Level 4!

I hadn't realised there were Value Added figures, thanks Atia, but I've been and found them now.

The grammar has a score of 1038 while the comprehensives have scores of 988 and 993. I think that 1000 is around the national average (or have I misunderstood).

Pip,

Again, value add for grammars is statisically unreliable due to ceiling effects, which occur both in the 'intake' figures and in the 'final qualification' figures.

The highest a child has been able to be reported as, for the DfE statistics, at the end of year 6 is level 5. Many, if not most, of the pupils who start at a superselective will in fact be working well within Level 6 on arrival. Thus the school benefits because the children 'progress' a level or so on arrival, simply because the artificial ceiling is removed and they can be given the level they were all along.

On the other hand, the school misses out on the 'final qualification' figures, espcially at GCSE, because it does not differentiate between a child who just got an A or A* at the end of Year 11 and the child who in fact could have got 100% at the end of Year 9 but a qualification to show this is not available.

It makes VA hard to interpret for such schools.

Thanks teacherwith2kids - there is so much information in those tables, I'm glad I'm being pointed in the right direction.

Looking at the higher achievers figures, it look like the two comprehensives both do OK (approx 80 - 85% make expected progress). Whereas the grammar has 100% making expected progress.

Which is somewhat reassuring if DD doesn't go down the grammar route for whatever reason.

I think I might have to do an executive summary for DH .

mumble - I use to live in SE London. There were regular 'incidents' at the local ethnically mixed school between white gangs and black gangs. I have an Asian friend who lives in the east end of London. Their kids are often subject to racist comments from white classmates.

Racism exist even in multi cultural environments.

My eldest son is at a grammar school

The Pros
He is quite eccentric, seen as something of an oddball and there are a few more children like him there
He struggles socially and therefore does not like the more interactive teaching that he had at the comp, he wants to sit in a classroom be told to open a book and answer the questions on page 2-4 and get on with it in silence - that is what he gets most lessons and therefore he is happy there.
He finds girls to be a complete mystery - despite having a mother and two sisters - and would rather not have to deal with them - the grammar is single sex.

I think a grammar works for my son as well as any school would be able to, it would drain the life from my other children.

OP, remember you can always move your DD for sixth form if she does years 7-11 in the superselective and then fancies a mixed or sixth form college style for A level and vice versa if her GCSE results are good and you want more of an academic challenge at A level (the grammar may also offer IB or Pre-U in sixth form). At 16 it will be much more obvious what sort of student she is.

If the grammar where you are is like our ones they will be keen to recruit into sixth form as many go mixed then.

OP a suggestion - can the staff at your DD's primary put you in touch with parents whose DDs attended the school and now go to the grammar? That might be more enlightening than posting here. Grammars are all different. Visit with your DD and see if you and she like the vibe or not. Consider whether you and she are willing to do a lot of practice for the test. If not, you're probably wasting your time as scores required are very high.

One question to ask the comps is how they set or stream. In the high school I was seconded to last year, they do not set or stream for humanities. The classes had a mixture of disaffected girls with no interest in learning humanities, girls with very poor literacy, middling ones and some very bright ones who were bored by the slow pace. Bright kids are pretty much left to their own devices in that set up (because the consequences of the struggling ones not getting a C are more serious than someone getting a B who could have got an A). By contrast in the grammar where I teach we can stretch the brightest and offer extra help to anyone struggling, because most students are doing fine. SEN support is also (IMO) better because there is less SEN.

Obviously 'your' grammar and comps may be different.

My DD and DS are at grammars in Essex. The key benefits which we have found is that they are able to provide opportunities for learning above and beyond the curriculum as they have a school full of bright keen students who are eager to learn. For example at dd's school she has been attending something called "Philosophy of History" every Wednesday after school since Y10. Students and teachers take it in turns to give a seminar on an aspect of history of interest to themselves which opens the girls up to themes and ideas beyond what they would cover in class. This is always well attended. I know at my comp there would not have been enough takers for this to run such a thing. They also have a History Society which invites visiting lecturers from different universities in to school periodically to give lectures to the older students and the parents thus opening the girls up to university style teaching. Again these lectures are always well-attended and there would not have been enough people interested in this at my comp to make it worth running.

Expectations are high and the students are encouraged to have high aspirations. At dd's school all Y10s go on a trip to Cambridge to show them what they could achieve if they work hard.

We have also found that dd has excellent relationships with her teachers (ds is only in Y7 so too early to say for him) and the teachers generally seem to be very relaxed with the students as most of them are eager to work and so there does not seem to be many issues around discipline. Of course, there are always going to be issues in any school but on the whole the students are self-motivated.

Pastoral care has been excellent - I am not saying this is anything to do with it being a grammar - just mentioning it as a few posters have said pastoral care was not good at their grammars.

Phineyj - I'd not really thought of it like that. I suppose that if we choose not to at least try for the grammar (assuming DD wants to try) then that is a door shut forever. But if we try and it doesn't work out for whatever reason, then there are alternatives. I don't think that there has been anyone from DDs school go to the grammar. It's only a decade old, and they really don't have much of a track record at all when it comes to the 11+.
We're planning to visit as many schools as possible this summer so that we can all start to get a feel for them.

MrsBartlet - I'm feeling all inspired reading about the extra lectures, I'd be up for that even if DD isn't . So glad that your DCs are doing so well.

I think that is key, piprabbit - visit as many schools as you can and get a feel for them. Hopefully you and dd will get a gut-feeling that one of them feels particularly right! We knew that the schools our dc have ended up at felt right for them when we first visited. We are lucky to have good comps here but they didn't feel such a good fit for our dc as the grammars.

seeker "...if your child is able she will do well at any school."

..not if they go to a certain school in Colchester... even one that, shock horror, has a "grammar stream". Been there, done that and got the Kevlar t-shirt to prove it. Those who know which school I'm talking about, will understand the Kevlar reference!

seeker I also don't buy the 'if a child is able they will do well at any school' line. Some might, but that's about the highest that I'd put it.

At a micro level I absolutely don't believe that a single one of my DC would have achieved equally had they gone to the local comp. I really don't. Not in a million years. Same kids, same home environment but the type of results the older six (the ones who've taken GCSEs) have achieved are unheard of at the local comp, it just doesn't happen. And their school is the only grammar in a vast area, so takes away only a tiny number from the top set of the regional comps.

It's a comforting sound bite but I'm not sure it's much more than that.

I agree to a point -yes, a bright child can do well anywhere but I think not only could they do better at a grammar but that it is easier to do better at a grammar. I went to a comp and did well (went on to do a good degree at a good university) but now I see the opportunities that my dc have at their grammars where they are being taught to a much higher level than I ever was. At their grammars it is expected that they will do well and work hard and as everyone around them is doing the same they get on with it.

Well, as I say with boring regularity, it does seem to apply to grammar schools- there is no significant difference between the results of children at comprehensive schools and the combined results of a grammar and a secondary modern in a similar catchment. And in fact the lower and middle ability children do better. Personally, given th choice between lower and middle ability children doing better and high ability children doing slightly (and it is slightly) worse, then I would go for the first option every time. Particularly as it also avoids the iniquity which is selection at 11.

at seeker's going for first option every time comment. Anyone familiar with seeker's history will know the reason behind the " "

At a micro level, my DS have done as well at both GCSE and A level as their cousins at super selectives in Birmingham and London (king Edwards and Tiffin boys)

That's from a comp by the way!

Although the comp doesn't inflate their A level stats by offering general studies so A levels are in proper subjects.

You're comparing different DC NewFerry. If I attempted to compare my DC with their very expensively educated cousins then it would be arguable that an awful lot of money had been wasted.

Well I can't split my DC into 2 and simultaneously send them 2 schools, which I guess would be the only way to conclusively prove that they would have done equally well at either school.

Just as you can't say conclusively that your DC would not have done equally well at a different school, perhaps not your local comp, but your local comp is not my local comp!

Our local comp is pretty good NewFerry. Knowing the results at that school and knowing my own DC that comparison is more valid than comparing cousins, which is pretty pointless really (possibly good for annoying a SIL you don't like, but apart from that).

And of course I can't say 'conclusively'. But I can say that it's almost certain that they wouldn't have done anywhere near as well.

You might also argue, NewFerry, that if your DCs have cousins that attend super-selectives, it is very likely that your DCs are of similar abilities anyway (which they obviously are if they've got similar results) and would always have been destined to do as well.

Anyway isn't there research that proves that grammar schools best benefit the less bright of the cohort (I am of course using the term loosely). I am not sure though whether that just applies to 'regular' grammars and/or the super-selectives too...