Dunottar/ Reigate Grammar - Merger, or what?

[quandry]

Got the letter today, and I have to say I don't really understand what is going on?
Is RGS bailing out Dunottar to save it going under?
I can't see the advantages for RGS at all?

Someone suggested that perhaps they'd make it co-ed, less academic school in the future (like a Box Hill in Reigate?) and share facilities more? (Sports fields closer than Hartswood?)

[ChocolateWombat]

This is an old thread, so not sure why people are posting about here about issues not to do with the merger. I think current posters are misinformed too. 25 students were not forced out a the end of GCSE. Some students choose to leave to go to the college, but it is their choice and they can return if they wish. There are entry requirements for the 6th form, which are 4A, 4B and above. You need an A to do a subject at A level, but who in their right mind would encourage someone to do an A level with less than an A in it these days. It is a common requirement across schools now. And Chinese students are still in the school, but none live in a school owned house.
Reigate Grammar might not be the school for everyone and Dunottar might be better for some, which is fine. Surely everyone can just go to the school that suits them best.

[tom2468tom]

I think wombat is right. I know that over a dozen didn't make the grades at St Johns and that Caterham asks for 5 A grades for students to get into the 6th form and depending who you ask is either ruthless or very flexible when applying that rule! IME, all schools have entry requirements for the 6th form and a few leave each year.

Why would it matter if some students came into a school having previously studied in China or France or America? Personally, I think that one of the good things about Caterham is that the 6th Form has a few dozen students from overseas in the 6th form as it makes the social mix a bit less 'surrey' and a bit more real world. I was talking to someone who has a DD in year 7 about the Mandarin Club that has just been launched at Reigate GS - run by one of the 3 Chinese students who joined the school 6th form this year. That seems pretty good to me (oh, and I guess that means that they haven't left!).

I would also say that Dunottar is another school with real strengths - a much stronger academic record than people give it credit for, all the benefits of an smaller girls school (pastoral care, girl opportunities in science etc), dedicated staff and more.

Can't we just accept that there are a number of good schools around.

[DavidChallinor]

Well sadly its been announced by the trustees that 88-years of education is being ended and Dunottar is likely to close. What will happen to the school and its grounds if it does? I don't know, but the governors profiles attest to much involvement in the local Reigate educational scene , perhaps they'll know www.dunottarschool.com/our-school/trustees/

For those of you asking the most important question – how are the best interests of the children involved, some as young as 11, served by this, that's something again I think you need to ask the trustees.
A sad time for education in that part of Surrey.

[Bellie]

Well you may well ask. It appears that Reigate grammar will benefit.
Zero investment for the land is the answer.
The new board of Dunottar was a majority of the board of governors who despite an obvious conflict of interest voted for the closure.
However fellow parents are mounting a legal challenge to this and will fight for the survival of the school.
Communication has gone out to this effect tonight

[Bellie]

I meant to say the majority of the board was made up of governors that also were on the board of Reigate grammar.

How they can act In the best interests of Dunottar is a clear conflict of interest as the grammar stand to benefit substantially.

[bookluva]

I have a very good friend whose daughter goes to Dunottar. My understanding is it started last September at the school's prize giving where the Head of the board of governors gave a highly inappropriate speech where he put the frighteners into parents by putting the seed in their minds that numbers were precarious. He then had to hold meetings with parents at the school, theoretically to allay their fears. With Year 9 parents, he made it worse and parents started to withdraw their daughters, worrying that the school migt close. Where did most if them go? RGS of course. They even accepted one girl who they rejected when she first applied 3 years ago. This begs the question: was this the long term strategic plan all along? When entering the 'collaboration' did RGS really just intend to eliminate local competition and boost it's own student numbers?

[LIZS]

Surely this is an inevitable consequence and extension of the original "merger" and phased closure of the junior school. It has looked vulnerable for some time. RGS site is too constrained and needs more space. Also the more generous financial assistance offered by RGS et al and downturn in demand locally for single sex education and economy generally.

[Bellie]

LIZ yes you are probably right that this was the natural progression of the merger. However if it is a natural progression why close the school, why not incorporate it fully?

The fact remains, the grammar school has financially given nothing (£0!!) to support Dunottar. There has been no financial assistance that you allude to.
They will inherit the land and the buildings without having to pay for it. Prime land in Reigate with an conservative value of £30m.

It is clear that there was not an intention to support Dunottar or try other approaches. The plan was to get the land for whatever purpose they wish to use it for.

[Gogirl1]

RGS have shown their true colours - asset stripping at its worst. 1 working day after the consultation last year the change to the Articles was signed by all Governers to show RGS as the only member and that after dissolution of the charity (provided they use it for education) RGS get all Dunottar's property and land for FREE. No wonder they haven't done anything to help, in fact, it has been the opposite. Totally sandbagged!! The only money they are now talking about investing is being raised by a charge against the property. I think they took this action now because green shoots were starting to show and the last thing they needed was the school actually increasing its numbers as it would make it more difficult to pull the rug without eyebrows being raised.

[Prawntoast]

Why on earth did the Dunottar trustees or governors agree to this, if they knew there was no financial support being offered?

[Bellie]

as one of the governors who was on the original board for Dunottar stated last night.

If they knew that RGS would not honour what they said they were going to, it would have been a different story.

The articles do not cover financial investment, that is a business decision. It appears that there were lots of promises made that have not been delivered on.

[nononsense1]

Wouldn't trust the Reigate mafia one bit. Not my words may I add. Fenton not consistent. I was told one space left in year 9 and the latest he would accept was October gone. Now... Spaces appearing. By the way they are short in year 8 so your safe there. RGS are all for themselves always will be. RGS Kids are horrible on the coach to dunottar kids. If your have a sibling there, your in regardless. Love the way ex parents of dunottar shit stirring you know who you are. YOU loved dunottar don't forget. Can't wait to get out of this rude town. My neighbour has a year 11 student at Grammar and needs a tutor! Good luck Grammar. It will always be a Dunottar site something We will always boast about.

[nononsense1]

RGS = GREED.

[bookluva]

They probably believed financial support WOULD be offered. Bearing in mind the ££££££millions. Benefits to RGS they were conned.

[NikkiSurrey]

I don't really want to get involved in this, but I'm not willing to see RGS slagged off by people who are acting on gossip and speculation. The fact is that RGS has been trying very hard to help Dunottar with the very difficult situation the school finds itself in.
Dunottar had already spent many months exploring many different options to try to increase funds/ gain financial support and increase numbers. It approached RGS as a guarantor as a 'last resort' last July.
Had RGS not stepped in, then Dunottar would have had to shut immediately, rather than being given some time to try to sort out an alternative plan.
The RGS governors were asked to get involved to bring new blood, ideas and expertise, since RGS is clearly a school which is 'working' (financially) and Dunottar wasn't.

I know many of the RGS governors, and they are all lovely, hard-working, dedicated people with busy lives, jobs and families.They have genuinely tried hard to work through some alternative scenarios. A loan was offered, but not yet taken up by D, I believe.

Dunottar has been losing students constantly for many years. There is obviously something about the 'model' which just hasn't been working well enough for it. Or perhaps their recruitment and marketing has been too weak?
RGS would be foolish to simply throw money at Dunottar to save it temporarily unless there was a clear plan for a viable future. RGS has a responsibility to its own parents and school community too.

I understand that the Dunottar parents have set up an action group to see if it can be saved. Perhaps people should channel their energies into that rather than indulging in gossip and speculation here. Let's not forget that the school needs MORE parents and pupils, and needs to build on its very positive history and achievements.
By slagging off all and sundry here people will likely put off existing parents and may well help create the very scenario they are trying to avoid.

Idle talk costs... etc

[bookluva]

Do we have a troll?

[NikkiSurrey]

No - not a troll - have been here for over a decade actually!

People are understandably upset, angry and emotional today, but the vitriol being targeted at RGS is completely out of order and very unhelpful, especially as some of the accusations are completely unfounded.

Yes, I am a RGS parent, but my neice is a Dunottar girl, and I think both schools are truly excellent at what they do. Today I am seeing messages and posts calling RGS greedy and criminal etc, and it's completely unwarranted.

The sad fact is that Dunottar has had problems for many years. These things don't happen overnight. The decline started back at the beginning of the recession at a time when the former head was on long-term sick leave. Numbers began to fall, classes merged etc. That's when the (then) governors and management team should have been taking action.

Parents are angry, and are looking to vent that anger on someone... anyone in fact.

These kind of public spats can only harm Dunottar's future, and undermine any chance of renegotiation or regeneration in the future.

[ChocolateWombat]

I agree with Nikki. Dunottar has obviously had problems for ages. Numbers declined and declined. Closure was likely if not inevitable. Sad for the staff and pupils, but not the fault of Reigate Grammar. The decline meant they could close at short notice last year or seek some kind of merger which would give them a slim chance of survival, or at least buy them time. The chances of staying open must have been very small, especially once they closed the Junior section. Why would numbers for the Senior school suddenly pick up at that point? However, both pupils and staff have had time to find alternatives, which they wouldn't have had without the merger.
I think ultimately Reigate Grammar will benefit, but they are not the ones who have brought about the decline of Dunottar. it has been going on for a long time. Schools reach a point when they are not viable and Dunottar has been close to this for ages. The challenge then becomes how to manage it. Schools can close with very little notice, leaving everyone up the creek. Or due notice can be given to allow people time to find alternatives. The merger rang warning bells for lots of people who then looked for alternatives. They had the time to do this, as did staff. Others still have time for September. I understand even if Dunottar closes it will keep going for classes part way through exam classes. Don't know how that will work out. I should think any parental campaign to keep it going is likely to fail because the numbers simply aren't there to make it work, however I u deist and they are desperate. Perhaps it is time to accept the inevitable and make the most of the time available now to find alternatives, rather than burying heads in the sand and thinking it can survive.
Sad, but a fact of life when schools need certain numbers to be viable. I guess many people want someone to blame and Reigate Grammar is an easy target......but the whole issue goes back much further clearly.
Sorry for such a long post.

[LIZS]

I meant more generous financial assistance in terms of attracting pupils, not that RGS were supporting D financially(or not). I gather the head takes opportunities to go round state schools, invite their pupils to drama, music etc and give them the sales pitch.

[Bellie]

None of what I have said is idle speculation, and people are perfectly entitled to post their opinions and what they know as fact on a public forum.


Yes there was a loan to Dunottar. It was given back AS IT WAS NOT NEEDED. There is no debt, no horrendous financial crisis.
Yes there are low numbers but the only reason that they fell this term was that RGS took girls from Dunottar outside of the normal transfer process, outside of the normal examination arrangements and outside of the fee termination process.

The numbers for the entrance examination this year at year 7 and year 9 were the highest for over 5 years. The local community had started to return with the faith that the Grammar were standing by a school in some trouble.

Instead, at the first sign of recovery, they have pulled the plug because as another poster has already said, if pupil numbers rose it would have been harder to do this in subsequent years.

Interesting this will also leave Reigate with one independent senior school. Sadly the M&M commission does not cover charitable trusts.

[nononsense1]

Well said Bellie. Could not have said it better. Your right the numbers did increase . Obviously we have hit a nerve with the costa coffee mums.

[bookluva]

Well said Bellie and nononesense1. Just for the record, Mr Walker's speech at the prize giving evening last September is a FACT and not gossip. The Year 9s leaving for RGS and being told they had to start immediately - thus triggering an escalation in the decline of numbers - is also a FACT not gossip. This is no longer a Dunottar versus RGS discussion. People are genuinely angry about how Dunottar has been treated by the board of trustees, which is dominated by RGS. Dunottar never had a chance.

[tom2468tom]

It is such a shame that there is such bad feeling. Dunottar is a great school but, apparently, too small.
Not that my opinion matters, but itlooksnow that Dunottar trustees must have been pretty close to deciding on a closure last year. I guess, with hindsight, it was always an odd thing for Dunottar to do - go cap in hand to the grammar. It now seems it was a last desperate death throw.

Part of me wishes that they had just been honest then and told people that there was a crisis a year ago and not gone near the grammar but maybe that wasn't possible for some reason? If parents had been told the extent of the problems then they could have done something to sort out the future of the school withoutall this bad feeling.

Whether the new Dunottar Governors, the old ones, the headmistress etcetc have all done enough to boost numbers over the last few years is hard to tell when the news is all a big shock but it does seem such a shame that something more wasnt done much sooner?

[ChocolateWombat]

I would agree that Dunottar never had a chance but for different reasons. It never had a chance due to the decline in numbers. The evident lack of investment there in recent years shows they have not had much spare cash. Even if there was a small increase in interest, it was still going to be a smaller school due to the lack of the younger years which had already closed. How many pupils do you think a school needs to be able to offer a broad curriculum and run viable sized exam classes and maintain a site to the standards expected in this day and age?
Once people can see the numbers are iffy they get cold feet and start moving. As you say this triggers more to leave and a downward spiral. However, the numbers were at the critical point before all the merger stuff.
You might not feel the school has been treated right by Reigate Grammar, but that is a side issue and not the real reason for the school closing. It would have happened whether Reigate Grammar were involved or not.....just sooner probably.
I agree it is a shame there will only be 1 independent school. Reigate Grammar isn't right for everyone and choice is always good. However, Dunottar girls don't have to go there and never have been made to. It has been their choice if they have moved. I also really don't think Reigate Grammar would expect to benefit in terms of numbers long term from this. The kind of girls who went to Dunottar didn't want to go the Reigate Grammar (which is fair enough,It doesn't suit everyone) and those kind of girls probably still won't want to go there, especially in the longer term, when younger girls looking for secondaries have more time to think about their options.
I am really sorry for all the girls and their families who now have to look for other options....because this isn't what they planned. I'm also sorry for the staff and hope they will be getting decent redundancy.

[ChocolateWombat]

Tom, yes I agree it was slightly odd that they approached the Reigate Grammar for help. I think they did know closure was likely, but it bought them some time. The closure that would have happened in summer 2013 will now be 2014. For those that realised closure was likely, they had more time to get alternatives sorted. Perhaps some really thought it might survive.....seems naieve (sp?) to me, but perhaps as Tom says,n the school should have been more honest about the likelihood of closure, because desperate people will cling to hope.