Dunottar/ Reigate Grammar - Merger, or what?

[quandry]

Got the letter today, and I have to say I don't really understand what is going on?
Is RGS bailing out Dunottar to save it going under?
I can't see the advantages for RGS at all?

Someone suggested that perhaps they'd make it co-ed, less academic school in the future (like a Box Hill in Reigate?) and share facilities more? (Sports fields closer than Hartswood?)

[DunottarVoice]

Dear All, there are over 120 hardworking Parents involved in Parent Action Group (PAG) supporting Dunottar School for Girls. There is substantial professional skills being gifted free of charge to ensure the school has a secure future. There is significant confidence that their investigations and efforts are entirely justified and indeed, essential as there appears to be no credible evidence for closure at present. The financial position and pupil reduction is not as it is being represented in the press. DunottarVoice.com will publish key facts over the next few days to provide clarity as the PAG moves forward.

The Parent Action Group will not respond to unpleasant remarks or engage in debate. The Parent Action Group is keen to engage parents of RGS and other schools, together with the wider public who care about maintaining a choice for parents in Reigate, the education of 200 current girls and the retention of almost 100 jobs that Dunottar School provides. Therefore we ask everyone, regardless of the school their children attends, to be respectful of one another.

If you would like to find out more please visit the DunottarVoice.com website or send questions to email [email protected]

Thank you.

[LadyMuck]

I'm not sure that I understand why there is an issue over having "only" one independent school in Reigate. Surely that's what would be expected for a town of the size. And presumably for boys there IS in fact only one private school?

[lostinsurrey]

Well done to PAG for your drive to see what can be done to save the school and jobs. With the area in line for over 2,000 new homes we should be opening schools not closing.

Remember it is a School then a Charity then a Business. In light of the recent financial crisis and having looked at the accounts on the Charities Comission website the School would be given a far higher rating than the Banks which are supposed to be Businesses!!

I hope that a solution can be found and lessons learnt.

[batman1]

My own view is that Dunottar should remain an all girls school. There is the demand
and with and with dynamic, creative and inspirational leadership, the school would thrive.

[shockedbunny]

I must say DunottarVoice, the parent action group seem to be doing everything that they can to save what is clearly a much loved school and in my opinion is one that should stay open for the sake of the parents choice in Reigate (although as LadyMuck says there is currently only one if you are a parent of boys!)

However, I am incredibly uncomfortable with the way you and the parent group seem to be trying to stop all open debate on the subject. Mumsnet (and all other forums like this!) are for exactly that - open debate and opinion.
Surely if you want to want to find out what the questions and discussion is in the community you should be encouraging the debate. I would have thought that it would help you investigate other areas for your campaign.

There is clearly something that the parental group are discovering and there may be some wrong doing, but you cannot control the conversations of people. This to me feels that you as a group are trying to shape everyones opinions to the same as yours. You have directed us all to a website that is obviously a very pro Dunottar website, but telling us this is where to find the facts. All I see on there is a list of positive comments from current and past pupils and some press releases that you have made. There is very little on there that is not already being discussed in the coffee shops in Reigate and on the sidelines of the football and rugby games that have been going on this weekend. You said that the parental action group is not going to engage in debate, and for us to be respectful. OK, there have been a few posts on here that have been a little personal and attacking, but most as far as I can see are throwing questions around that the entire population are asking. Debate that is challenging a decision and asking questions is healthy and to be quite honest something that you should be encouraging not trying to close down and control.

I have taken from this that there is no new information other than what the Surrey Mirror reported the other day.

Your passion for the saving of a beautiful looking school is clearly there, but will passion be enough? I hope so for all the efforts that are being put in, but at the moment I can't see that there you have any facts that change the very sad case that the Governors have decided to move to closure.

As I said at the beginning of this post, in my opinion I really think that there is a place for Dunottar in Reigate, and I do want you to succeed in your aim to do this, but the controlling nature of what you have said on here is alarming that you do not want to engage fully in the debate that will rage for months in the community.

[tom2468tom]

Wow- I just went to the website and the Parents' Action Group - Dunottar Voice (is that the right name) is calling for Dunottar to go CO-ED and be a 'non-selective school'. Crikey.

I know that there is a lot of support for Dunottar as a girls' school that selects girls following an entrance exam (if enough apply for selection to be an issue) with its own distinct ethos, with the opportunities in the Sciences etc that a girls' only school can provide based on various studies suggesting that a Girls only school offers girls specific advntages etc. That all kinda makes sense and the huge support from old girls to save Dunottar has been really impressive.

It is an interesting development that the group set up to save Dunottar School for Girls now seems to want it to close and instead to open a co-ed comprehensive school.

I thought that the PAG was saying that they disagreed with the suggestion that Dunottar as it is (single sex etc) isn't viable? But if so, why would the PAG now say it is looking to start a new co-ed comprehensive school on the DUnottar site. That doen't seem to make sense? Will the new co-ed 'non-selective' school be given the Dunottar name? Will teachers who have not taught boys be the best ones for a co-ed school / will they want to stay? Does it save their jobs at all?

So, am I right, the PAG have decided that Dunottar School isn't viable but that a new co-ed school would be viable?

This is all very fast moving and I am not sure of the facts at all!

[LadyMuck]

Judging by the other website, it already looks as if only a co-ed future is now being considered, though that would be a huge task, and it may be too late.

I've always been surprised that the Reigate schools have been loathe to look north for pupils. We only looked at RGS as we have boys but without a pickup from Redhill station it just wasn't feasible for us - we didn't feel that we could rely on a connecting train between Redhill and Reigate. We're only 20 minutes away, so it felt odd to have to cross it off the list, but transport links are pretty crucial. Schools such as Woldingham, Caterham, the 3 Dulwich schools and Trinity all pick up from my local station, whereas it seems nigh on impossible to get to Reigate.

I guess that the nearby competition would be Greenacre in Banstead?

[LadyMuck]

Ooops, crossed with Tom.

I guess the new governors had done a fair bit of groundwork with regards to local prep schools numbers etc in deciding whether there were enough girls for both a co-ed and a single sex school in the area. I'm sure such a study would make interesting reading (in a slightly nerdy way). As someone who will end up spending £££ on education, I'm surprised at how little market research seems to be undertaken. I end up spending more time being quizzed about my car-buying processing that my school-buying process.

[LIZS]

Seems very early in the consultation to backtrack on the belief in single sex education, either there is a market for it locally or there isn't . Greenacres seems to be increasingly popular.

tbh it has taken over 10 years and a change of head for LND to become perceived as a true co-ed option with significant investment in facilities and opportunities for boys. If that really was an option for D should it not have been pursued before they phased out the juniors which I understand did have some boys in EY/Pre-prep. Sorry but if that principle goes I fear D will very quickly become a second campus for RGS , even if technically independent of it, and probably not get to cherry pick its students. I feel particularly sorry for those parents who may have one child at D and another at RGS/RSM.

[shockedbunny]

Only just seen todays press release on the Dunottar Voice website. I am surprised at the complete turn around this early in the consultation.
It only goes to reinforce that the Governors may have made the correct decision in the first place to move to closure, as obviously there is not the demand for a girls school in Reigate.

It seems a shame, as the value-add scores seem phenomenal!

What are Greenacres doing then if they are increasing numbers?
There is enough distance between them for both to be viable surely if the demand for single sex is there?

Given that RGS academically are becoming more selective, I would think that there is a place for another co-ed, but it would appear that it would become the second stream school to RGS which may not make it appealing to all. I am guessing that the RGS governors have probably looked at this option too and again found that given all the other co-ed schools in reasonable reach of Reigate - Caterham, LND, Box Hill, etc there probably is not a large enough market to support this approach either.

I'm also guessing that if they do manage to allow Dunottar to survive as a single sex, there will be a number of existing parents that remove their girls as they wanted the single sex approach and even if it saves the school co-ed is not what they wanted? This will make it harder to keep the numbers at viable levels in the first instance surely?

interesting times!

[Bellie]

The latest press release does not mean that Dunottar will not survive.

If they do go co-ed surely this will be a good thing for Reigate? It will create more competition, and the value-add scores only support this!

The teachers will stay to retain the ethos and given that there are a shortage of senior school places, there has to be a place for a different approach to co-education in Reigate other than the hot house environment of RGS. This would work perfectly in my opinion!

[ChocolateWombat]

I find the change of direction odd. Loads of people have posted that the big pro of Dunottar was it being single sex and how having a choice of single sex or co ed was important. Suddenly that argument has been scrapped. Seems perhaps there wasn't enough demand for girls only education.....which is what the falling numbers suggested and why it is under threat of closure.

I wonder how many parents are behind the idea of co ed Dunottar. I guess some chose it because it was single sex. They may not be keen for co ed. Will they want to keep their girls at Dunottar if it goes mixed? There are others who may have chosen it because they loved the atmosphere and it being less or not selective suited them better. I guess they may be prepared for co ed if it means saving the school.
However a co ed school is a totally different beast. It would change Dunottar a lot and the staff are teachers of girls. It's strengths as a girls school do not necessarily translate to co ed.

How long would it take to attract sufficient boys to make it viable? Parents would be taking a risk on an unknown and also an unknown which has had big questions over its future.

Reigate and Redhill are not huge places. There are other independent co ed schools offering alternatives to Reigate Grammar. Does it make sense to have 2 co od independent schools within a mile of each other?

I don't know, it just all seems so sudden and no clear reasoning for the change of direction has been given. Seems to confirm though that a girls school couldn't survive long term. Pity.

Oh and what about this change from PAG group to Dunottarvoice? Are the same people leading Dunottar voice to those who were leading before. I sense a change of tone in it all.

On a separate note, I agree with what ShockedBunny said up post about finding the posts discouraging debate strange and concerning. What does it mean that PAG won't engage in debate and why shouldn't people express views on a forum. The press releases from Dunottarvoice actually tell us very little.....actually they provoke speculation due to the lack of explanation for changes in direction.

We watch with interest.

[batman11]

Dunottar will remain a top girls school and will thrive once the current situation is sorted.

[NikkiSurrey]

Agree - today's press release is very odd and unexpected indeed?

All the parents I know with girls at Dunottar chose it precisely for single sex education / nuturing/ pastoral care reasons. I can't imagine them staying if it goes co-ed.
(And I know that, like all the parents, they have already explored alternative options)
If I think about the boys I know who have gone to non-selective independent schools, they seem the least likely types to easily slot into a former girls school?
Just can't see how it would work... Seems as if the parents might end up saving a very different school!
Also the relationship with RGS would be really difficult - how would it set itself apart with a positive differentiation, rather than just 'less academic'?
Box Hill managed to sort of do this with its outdoorsy/ international links/ boarding etc.
Perhaps the plan is to get the school back from RGS ( hence the call for charity experts and barristers) and then it would be in competition with RGS perhaps for some of the 'middle ground' students who could go either way.

So I wonder what has led to this rather sudden decision? The PAG team are obviously working their socks off, and are to be applauded for that, but I have to agree with others in that the Dunottar Voice website doesn't really provide the answers to the big questions.

At the end of the day, it's probably the most exciting thing to happen in Reigate for a while ( apart from the fallen tree on Reigate Hill A217 ) so it's inevitable that people will want to discuss it!

[batman11]

Of course Dunottor will be freed from RGS. It may be the overwhelming demand for both boys and girls to be taught in a caring and focused enviroment that has "steered" the action group in this direction. It is my own hope that Dunottar remains a girls school but the demand for an alternative to RGS could prove to be irresistible.

[LadyMuck]

"Of course Dunottor will be freed from RGS."

I thought that the majority of trustees were now RGS trustees? How exactly do you think that will happen?

The sudden move from selective girls school to non selective co-ed school, in the space of a week, won't exactly encourage the current round of applicants will it? Even Wilson's brief consultation on going coed has meant that many in the area believe that that is going to be the case (despite a whole u-turn in a very short space of time).

I do sympathise with the current parents who are worried about their dds though. Perhaps it may be worthwhile for the PAG group to talk to the former Crohom Hurst/Old Palace parents who were put into a difficult situation when those 2 schools (with very different ethos) merged a few years back.

[NikkiSurrey]

Given how over-subscribed RGS has become, there is certainly demand in the Reigate area for good independent schooling, but this is such a massive change of direction, it feels like a mammoth task to try to plan in such a short space of time ( under the consultation timing).

I'd imagine existing v. academic Dunottar girls ( who, in my experience, are often the most 'anti-boy' anyway) would leave for RGS/ Caterham, so the school's current academic record would become irrelevant.
I agree too that many of the current teachers have probably made a positive decision to teach in a girls school, so may look to leave, when faced with the completely different prospect of a classful of boys.

I've been asked by friends, via twitter, to contribute to the 'fighting fund' but at the moment it's not clear what they're fighting for?!

[batman11]

Freed from the RGS trustees. This could happen soon after the charities commission investigation.

[NikkiSurrey]

"Freed from the RGS trustees. This could happen soon after the charities commission investigation."

Or it might not... The Commission could take the view that since Dunottar approached RGS and signed an agreement there isn't really a 'case' to pursue?

I suspect this is exactly the sort of discussion the PAG/The Voice don't really want to have bandied around. Are you an official spokesperson for DV Batman?

[batman11]

No

[elsma]

As a Dunottar mum who specifically picked a girls-only option, I'm not taking the co-ed thing lightly. That said, given the choice of schools available given where I live - co-ed Dunottar or no Dunottar, I've no girls-only choice.
So, pragmatically, I'd rather have a co-ed Dunottar than put my child into a school that I've already not chosen (IYSWIM)
Oh, another thing is this "non-selective" thing... I think that is lazy language rather than policy. I think it refers to not selective in a strongly academic way in the way that RGS and others are. It isn't going to "go comp" of that I am absolutely sure!
One thing I'm sure of is that people who are working day and night to develop a compelling business plan are probably constrained in the detail that they can share. So I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until they can reveal all their cards on much of this.

[Bellie]

Lots of rumouring as is likely to be in Reigate. As NikiSurrey says, outside of the flooding/storms/trees falling down this is the most exciting story in Reigate for ages.

Although not gospel, my understanding now is that the co-ed option was explored as a working proposal by the management and the governors.

The working group have now picked up on this, as they do not believe that the RGS governors fully explored this in the time they allowed from the proposal being put forward and the decision to issue closure notices.

It appears that the change in name is because of the wider group of people that are now involved in the action group. It is no longer just parents, but people from the local community, old girls, parents of prospective girls and actually parents of children at RGS and RSM.

I'm not the voice of the action group either btw.

[NikkiSurrey]

The 'Voice' name now has me imagining Governors facing away in high-backed chairs, listening to the action group recommendations, then suddenly pressing their buttons, swivelling round and saying 'I want YOU...'



Or maybe not....

[batman11]

Agree with elsma, don't think taking boys is a done deal, it's not. My hope is that it remains an all girls school. I have taught in a mixed school and an all girls school and it is clear that girls do better without boys and is the reason my own daughter went to a girls' School.

[NikkiSurrey]

"don't think taking boys is a done deal, it's not"

But why on earth would they issue a press release saying this is the future they are now considering for the school?
As others have said, it looks as if the DV group have now seen all the data for the girls only option and had to come to the same unfortunate conclusion as the governors i.e. that this isn't viable in the medium to long term?

It would be very foolish of them to 'announce' the co-ed route if there was still any chance of the girls only option? It will only serve to give current and prospective parents increasing uncertainty and lack of confidence if they keep chopping and changing between the two. Parents would want to be reassured that there is clear direction, based on solid facts and a sound strategy.
If the school does continue (and I hope it does...) I do wonder how it will be managed going forward? It's great to have a 120-strong working group of professionals who swing into action in a crisis, but what happens when the initial excitement is over, and they all go back to their day jobs?

To be honest, I don't think they could do it without RGS to help - admitting boys would mean such a steep learning curve, especially at Secondary level.