school says they will only take those for whom this school is first choice?!

[Chandon]

Can this be true?

We have two good schools (lucky us) but our first choice is oversubscribed, and we cannot be sure of a place. Our second choice says they only take kids who have them as First choice!

Dilemma. But also, can this be true? that would mean we can end up with No school.

Are we being bullied into putting them down as our first choice? Can schools actually say they only want people who have them down as a first choice? Isn't it up to the LEA to decide where we are placed?

I'm sure it did ask though, but was two years ago so I may be wrong!

I wanted it as second choice with another school as third and had resigned ourselves to the fact that we would get school 3 if we didn't get school 1 iyswim?

Church school doesn't give sibling priority either, another reason it was only my second choice rather than first.

In my LEA you have 3 choices. They apply your first rank (choice) school's admissions criteria and if you don't get a place, they apply your second rank school's admission criteria and so on.

I always thought it was true. Mind you, that's just going by what the individual school told us when we were applying.

That was a while ago though.

So, what is the point in ranking them in order of preference? Or do you not have to do that any more?

MissKeithLemon: it's not legit. A faith school can use a supplementary form to establish priorities within the faith criteria. But all schools are bound by the Admissions Code, including VA faith schools, academies and free schools; they can indeed set their own criteria, but these must be legal ones.

TantrumsAndBalloons The reason for ranking them in order of preference is that if you get in to all six schools on your form, the LEA just sends you an offer from the one you placed first on your form, and assigns the places in the other schools to other kids. The schools only find out at that point that they weren't your first choice. So if you get in to schools ranked 2,4, and 5 on your list, you'll ONLY be offered the place at school 2, and the LEA will place other kids at schools 4 and 5. So the preference thing is for you, not for the school.

Tantrums - the places are not issued in order of preference. A child who meets the criteria and lives close enough to the school will get in, regardless of whether they put the school 1st or 3rd preference.

Chandon - could you please name and shame the school?

"So, what is the point in ranking them in order of preference?"

So that when the lists are turned into one offer per pupil, you are given your highest preference, not just allocated one at random from any school that can offer you a place. Otherwise if you applied for schools A (really want) B (OK) or C (oh dear, but better than traipsing an hour in the wrong direction daily), and qualified for a place at all of them, you could get any of them at bureaucrat's whim.

madmog you have misunderstood what is meant by first choice. What is probably true is that everyone wants that school as their first choice, and defacto everyone who did get in, as well as those who didn't, put it first choice. That is often the case with oversubscribed schools.

I will give you an example to the contrary.
A very popular convent school which is most people's first choice. Extremely difficult to get into. Faith criteria very exacting, eg: six month baptism, involvment in parish activities, weekly attendance at Mass five years. Highly academic.

But a friend's child decided she actually preferred a different convent school, which was quite far from her house, and just happened to have a less exacting oversubscription criteria (although still oversubscribed by a long shot). She put that first, and the popular convent second. She got a place at the first convent, because she fitted all the criteria. Cue much gnashing of teeth, although everyone else had failed to get into first convent and got a place at second (they were gnashing their teeth too . She lived so far away that it took a while for a place to be available on waiting list. But in the end, off the waiting list, she got a place at her first choice, the less popular convent. Presumably because some people at the less popular convent got offered places off the waiting list on the very popular convent

So you see, [if you followed me so far....) there is room for manoeuvre, as long as you put the school you WANT first choice, FIRST choice.

Chandon - given all the views on her suggesting what the Head said it just plain wrong, could it be as I said up post :

Maybe the school was trying to get across the message they they want people to actively chose them, not be full of kids who are disappointed they didn't get their first choice? In my area, the second-choice school is full of kids who didn't get the 'better' school, and the head of the second-choice school is very prickly about always being the bridesmaid...She is trying to change peoples' opinions, but every year she gets about 40% of kids who want to be there, and 60% kids who are only there because they didn't get the 'better' school and so come in a bit grumpy about it all.

Maybe the Head wants parents to be convinced the school should be their first choice, and that is what she/he was trying to get across (albeit clumsily and perhaps with an attempt at misdirection).

interpretative I think you are completely right.

I think some parents misunderstand what the school is actually saying.

I had this with dc's school. They weren't saying that of you didn't put them first you wouldn't get in. What they actually were saying is that if you put them second and you qualified both your 1st and 2nd choices you would be allocated your 1st choice.

I clearly heard what they were being told at open evening but some parents still took it to mean that you would not be offered the school if you didn't put it as your first choice.

Madmog if they do not offer places in a choice blind manner they are breaking the admissions code, even with banding.

Similarly MissKeithLemon, as long as you fill in the supplementary form and qualify then the school shouldn't know where you placed them on the form, and asking for that information on a supplementary form is against the rules.

With banding, they should allocate places within each band strictly according to the admissions code.

So at Kingsdale in S London which does banding and a lottery, they band, and then do random allocation of the available places within that band (after the / scholarship / statemented / sibling places have been allocated within the appropriate band). At Dunraven, they put each applicant in a band and then allocate places by looked after / SEN or statement / siblings / distance.

Lets me quite clear here, some head teachers simply are so far behind the times in knowing what the admission regulations are that they continue to say at open nights etc that if you do not put us down as first preference you will not get in. That in its own right would make me wonder what else the school is behind the times on.

There are also those head teachers who do know the rules but continue to make these statement. We certainly have one locally and when challenged about it at the open evening last year, he had the cheek to say that they knew which pupils had put them down as first preference and would only allocate places to those pupils. As a local authority school they have absolutely no way of knowing that information. I know he got his knuckles wrapped by the LA over that incident but he said exactly the same last week at their open evening. As he also told some parents in writing last year that if they put the school as first preference they would get a place, it caused lots of problems when it came to appeals.

Under those circumstances I would not allow my child to go to a school where the head teacher will blatantly lie to 100s of parents.

I'm a bit confused at how they manage the waiting lists then, and it seems some people here know what they are talking about.

Say there are two schools, church and non-church, and an atheist lives next to the church school and a Christian lives next to the non-church school. The atheist puts the non-church school first and church second. They are too far to get into non-church so get into church when all applications at any preference are considered and are put on the waiting list for non-church.
The Christian does the same the other way around.

So this would mean that both hold offers at their second choice school and are on the waiting list for their first choice.

It seems mad that neither would get their first choice when a simple swap would achieve this. Can the LA organise a swap?

I would have thought that looking through first choices first and only looking at second choices if there were spare places would ensure that more people got their first choice and hence were happier. Is that really not what happens or am I greatly confused?

admission - I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I am absolutely gobsmacked that a headteacher would be that stupid!

I dread to think what else goes on in schools with that type of head.....

Noblegiraffe - pretty much that situation has happened locally, although both schools were C of E. Family A preferred school Y but got offered school X; family B preferred X but got offered Y. The LA can't simply swap the places, nor can the parents.
Because family C also wanted X but got Z, they also live closer to X than family B; so if A give up their place for whatever reason C has preference over B. Or family D move in next door to X after the application closing date, so are now top of the waiting list (and may only be offered school Q on the other side of town, because it is the only school with places left).

It is really complicated, which is why parents don't have a choice, just a right to express a preference.

Thanks for the replies!

I may be busting my anonymity here,

But it was the Westgate school in Winchester.

We are very much in catchment of Westgate, but would maybe prefer King's, and are in catchment for them too! Yet King's is oversubscribed so there is a small chance we would not get in (though their head of admissions said we would likely get in, as many people come from much farther afield, and we live 5 minutes away).

Both schools are great, so it is no hardship, either way. I just don't like being bullshitted.... I was going to put King's and then Westgate (and then HB).

I like people to be straight. I came home from the open evening, and had a chat with DH who said it could not possibly be true. So I thought I'd put it out here!

I did get the vibe there is a bit of (healthy! IMO) competition between King's and Westgate. King's gets the better GCSE results.

hopefully this settles it....

www.education.hants.gov.uk/admissions/schoolpolicies/40122013.pdf

Shoudl change name to Queen of Google...

dd1 was asked at a music scholarship audition a few years ago where she had put the school in the preference ranking. She told them she didn't know .

Other dcs at the audition were asked too.

I thought it was shocking at the time, though didn't complain.

Which school? It's in London but if I tell, this thread will probably be pulled for fear of libel?