Not going to be Oxbridge material

[BlogOnTheTyne]

DS2 has always had his heart set on going to Oxbridge - along with some other very fixed aims for his life. He's only 11 and has high functioning Asperger's (hence the fixed goals/ beliefs thing) and so far done v well academically.

New senior school has recently assessed all the Yr 7 intake. DS2 falls within only the third quartile in ability for this very academic school.

The school sends a lot of students to Oxbridge from the 6th form but this means that they only 'support' the absolute creme de la creme in applications. At another kind of school, DS2 may have had some chance at least of applying. But he won't be in that cohort at this school.

I was lucky, several decades ago - to be at a school that had never sent anyone to Oxbridge. They put me forward and I got in, purely, I think, because the college that accepted me - and the university at that time - wanted to show that they gave places to people with a potential a chance but from schools that didn't 'prepare' you for Oxbridge.

By investing in DS2s education, I'm actually going to be putting him at a disadvantage. He'll be coming from a school known for its academic success and Oxbridge/Russell group Uni success.

I suppose I have several choices available to me across the next few years:

Help DS2 to see that he can be happy even if he doesn't achieve one of his 'rigidly fixed' life aims (probably the most important aspect of this whole thing anyway).

Take him away from this school where he's really, really happy and already doing well and put him in a school where he may have a better chance to aim for Oxbridge and be in the very top few in his cohort.

Work with the school, across the years, to hope they'll support him with what he wants to do - and begin now on that track.

I get the impression that they've already categorised the 11 yr olds and will get from each of them what they now expect.

Has anyone else had children in the same position? What have you done to help the situation? Did you just 'bow' to the opinion of where your child ranks in the class cohort and let go of trying to enable your child to achieve their goals, if these are unrealistic, in the context of that kind of school?

There is absolutely no way you can know whether somebody is or is not Oxbridge material at the age of 11.

Oh, and "But I do think that there is a concerted effort out there to disadvtange kids who have parents who actually care about their education. As you allude to, if someone goes to a grammar/private/otherwise successful school, they have that counted against them for university admissions. It makes me sick to be honest." is a mindbogglingly narrow minded and ignorant thing to say.

Thanks again for the further feedback. Homebythesea, all the children at that school are 'high achievers', I suppose. So it's not that I doubt his ability but I'm realistic enough to see that he's not at the top of this cohort - nowhere near.

So, in a school of this kind, I presume he won't now be seen as one of those children who they support into certain universities. Of course I don't know this. It's only given what I see of the percentages they send to Oxbridge and knowing the ability of several of his peers - quite scarily intelligent and way ahead of their years (and probably of me too!) -it would make sense that the school will 'bet on' the candidates that come right at the top.

There are some children already doing A level standard maths for example and they're only 11. I remain useless, myself, too at non verbal /spatial tasks but think I only got into Oxbridge because of luck, the type of school that gave me the push to try and the particular subject and college I ended up at.

AS someone pointed out, DS2s happiness is my absolute top priority. I want him to be more flexible in his thinking and not to make assumptions at this very young age about what he needs to achieve to become happy. In fact he already knows that my onw undergrad. Oxbridge years were not happy at all.

Who knows what things will be like in the next 7 years in terms of uni applications etc. I'll wait and see how things man out at the school. He's really happy there anyway and is already doing very well and his happiness is all I really want, especially given his particular idiosyncratic, eccentric personality.

I meant to write, I'll wait to see how things pan out, not man out! at the school!!!

"Maybe what worries me most is that I've made a mistake in enabling him to go to a v academic school and that this will 'go against him' for many reasons."

School is more than just preparing a child for the best universities. I went to an extremely academic private school and it prepared me for life rather than university. Your son will have opportunities to develop as a person, he will learn a range of topics beyond the national curriculum. He will get a tremenous education that hopefully he will enjoy and raise his confidence.

As your son matures hopefully his rigid thinking will become more managable. He will always have aspergers, but with love and supportive school he will learn coping strageries. Learning to deal with disappointment is an important lesson for us all.

MidYIS isn't an IQ test, it's a baseline test for planning ahead and later measuring value added. It will reflect current educational achievement, not basic potential. The school is very very unlikely to be using it for assessing base ability, so it won't matter in the way you think. If they care about value added, and using MidYIS suggests they do, they'll be delighted to have a third quartile pupil reach Oxbridge standard.

I really think you are overthinking this. I assume MidYIS are what were known as The Durham tests at my DDs school, since they are devised by Durham University. They take them in a lot of schools . They are to point up a childs strengths and weaknesses, gaps between attainment and ability in both verbal and non verbal reasoning and provide a baseline for value added. If there is a gap between a child's ability and attainment in either dimension of ability, then it suggests the need for tests to check there are no SLDs, and that is the main reason they are likely to have significance for a parent. One of my DDs is like your son much stronger in subjects that require verbal skills and this in all likelihood has far more to do with the fact that she scores much more highly in verbal reasoning tests than in non verbal than the fact that I have probably had what you describe as a high degree of parental input. That motivation and achievement follows ability underpins educational and occupational psychology. No school is going to place more value on NVR than VR, they are the two dimensions of ability measured, that simply isn't sound educational psychology.

Nor should any school determine how they treat a child from now on just on the basis of the Durham tests, apart from anything else they are just one snapshot on one day, my DDs have been subject to at least three more Ed Psych assessments since, and there is always some variation including one NVR score that would have had you running for the hills, she may have been bottom set Maths but still managed an A* at GCSE!! Instead they will flag up any obvious disparities for further action and then use the baseline figures as a whole to assess their valued added to feed into the schools improvement plans (since a cohorts results will be statistically valid)

They are not going to now ignore the evidence of ability that emerges in class and in his work and the talents that manifest themselves in all manner of ways and at different stages! Apart from anything else teachers aren't robots who only work on the basis of what comes out of a set of tests, hopefully your son will at some point have that inspirational teacher who spots his ability and talents and takes great satisfaction from nurturing them as did one Science teacher with DD1 and one English teacher for DD2. Its what they go into teaching for!!!

BusyDad66 I agree with seeker, that is an astonishingly ignorant thing to say. I am an academic and I can assure you we take contextual data into account in selecting students for our course for one reason and one reason only, because it ensures we recruit the students who will do best on our course. That is proven by our experience as well as scientifically rigourous studies. We also value a diverse group of students with different life experiences, and students with different ways of thinking, such as OPs son, because it contributes to improving the quality of debate. Also it may surprise you to know that academics are reasonably savvy, some are even parents and so can distinguish between a good state school and a bad one, it is about good schools and bad ones not indie/ private. Strategically putting your DC into a good comp or switching for sixth form isn't going to get you any advantage. Unless of course you think that divorcing, subjecting your child to abuse and poverty, or perhaps putting your child into care, sending them to a poor performing inner city school is a sound strategic option for getting them to Oxbridge, or to be given a lower offer for uni, recognising the very real challenges they have faced

And anything which can level the playing field a bit so that privilege doesn't follow privilege quite as unerringly as it has in the past can only be a good thing!

Copthall surely parents don't seriously use divorce as a mitigating circumstance these days?

There's a real need for access routes for some kids, but not for run of the mill divorce, surely?

Didn't mean to bold mitigating circumstance, mistake.

"there is Alan Milburn talking about lower offers for poor kids and other much nonsense! "

I know he is very focused on this path - do you think he can cope with the pressure at this school? If, at 11, he is already in tears at the prospect of not going to Oxbridge?

Is the school helping broaden his interests and develop his social skills? Find some other interests he can get stuck in to, to take the pressure off him a bit?

"I want him to be more flexible in his thinking and not to make assumptions at this very young age about what he needs to achieve to become happy. In fact he already knows that my onw undergrad. Oxbridge years were not happy at all."

phew! please hold on to this. after this hypothetical oxbridge degree he has to go into the workplace and we all know how much flexibility and adaptability is needed nowadays.

Surely the school will want as many pupils as possible to do as we'll as possible and will work with you to ensure the best possible outcome for your child. If not, what are you paying for?

You don't have to follow the school's advice on where to apply. If he wants to apply for Oxbridge, he can. But given his nature, the way you describe it, it would be good to look at other options. I too have a rather fixated 10 year old who decided 2 years ago which uni he wants to go to. How he found out about it is beyond me, it's not even in the UK, but he announced where he is headed and won't budge, so I sympathise.

It may help to go into greater detail about what he wants to study there and then look closely at some other courses and tutors too. If he reads a great book for example, by an academic who teaches elsewhere, just mention it in passing. let him see that there are plenty of opportunities and try and show it can be win win. If he gets into an Oxbridge college, that's fine. If not other choices are also wise.

11 is too early to know. Particularly since he is a boy and has asd. He may leap past his peers as late as 16yo. Or he may not, best to teach him about lots of options.

Not had time to read other responses so sorry if already said, but jut wanted to say that a school can't 'put people forward' for Oxbridge. In my very academic school it was never ever suggested I apply for Oxbridge - there were a chunk of more obvious candidates. I never thought about it either. Then at the very very last minute (the week before the application deadline) I decided to give one of those unis a punt. I was strongly advised against by the teacher of my weakest subject (maths). However, I did the application anyway. Long story short...I got in, and three years later graduated with a first class degree.

FWIW I also had a bunch of friends who also weren't ever 'considered' Oxbridge material and didn't apply. When they got a raft of As at A-Level, a couple of them were very bitter that they'd not been encouraged to consider Oxbridge. This is one of the problems with v academic schools in my opinion - they can in fact lower the aspirations of some incredibly bright people who just don't happen to be the cream of that particular crop.

So, ignore what the school says. Take close attention to what you and your son think over the next few years, and manage his expectations appropriately as you move forward - clearly he may not be sufficiently academic, but that may not be clear until much much later. If at all! If you think he has the remotest chance of getting in and - importantly - could cope with rejection if it happened, then I'd encourage an application regardless of the school's opinion.

Who gives a F*? 1. Of course he's not Oxbridge material.. he is 11.

1. He can get to be oxbridge material by 18 fairly easily by working harder and thinking more creatively/questioningly than the arrogant public school tossers who think being plummy gets you in.
2. And he can get just as good (arts) or better (sciences) education elsewhere
3. And (especially sciences) can easily go to oxbridge at PG level.

Also consider:
a. The people 'assessed' as 'Oxbridge material' are normally the children of people who have said to the teacher'my child is Oxbridge material.
b. Being outside 'oxbridge material' in a school that feeds Oxbridge usually means that his grades will be oxbridge level grades anyway, but just that he will feel that he is not oxbridge because of the BS.
c, the 'oxbridge types' at his school always run the danger of being interview robots, coached, disciplined and rehearsed. make him focused, questioning, prepared to admit and explore his own mistakes and/or misunderstandings and why and teach him to explain concepts in pictures, allegories and stories.
d. get him used to reading books as a passion and as a habit (eg five pages each day for a complicated text book). This 'skill' is loved at Oxbridge as they expect high reading levels (you might remember and understand 5% but that's more than the privileged plummers who don't bother their arse and get kicked out in year one.
e. if its sciences particularly but also economics, philosophy, genetics (oh yeah that's science!) history etc.. get him some year one texts second hand and especially 'very short guides to' right now. they will lay behind him some landscapes to put future learning into (just like if you walk a cross country track before you run it, you run it much quicker than running with doubt in your mind).
f. Teach him the 'read stuff that's way beyond your knowledge, then within reach of your knowledge, then way beyond, then within. You might never understand the stuff that is beyond, but again its like seeing the top of the cliff before you climb up to it - its the psychology that's important.
g. do 'career consequences' if he is clear of his oxbridge goals. write 'me at oxbridge!' at the top of a piece of paper, fold it over and write down what 'me at oxbridge' needs to do before getting to oxbridge (get grades), then 'apply' perhaps (leave it up to him.. it could be 'pack my bags' or 'learn to sing in choir' or anything!).. right up until ' go into year 12 ready'
h.. er that's it!

In ds1's comprehensive they have started streaming them into an Oxbridge orientated group in Year 9. Not that the rest of us know about this, or I suspect there would be an uproar. I just heard it from a mum

Still I was a bit narked that expectations and effort are focused so early Don't think my yr 8 will end up in that group!

I think it is perfectly ridiculous that you are letting ds worry about that now. I think the other thing to remember is that children only know what you tell them/model to them, so the more stories you tell them of people who went to other unis, the more balanced their view of the future. My son at the moment thinks that after High School you get a job, because so many of his friends' parents did that, it has taken a lot of gentle elaboration to show there are many options, university being one of them, but a job is not the only option when you are 18/19!

Sorry! I didn't read the 'idiosyncratic personality' bit. Is he sciences or art? If sciences idiosyncracies are what research layer needs. UG needs drones, PG needs creative thinkers and 'envelope pushers' [urgh at terminology!] so if he is like this, train him to say 'I think I will really flourish at the research level because I like thinking in a different way within and around my current knowledge to see if I can come at things from a new angle' hehe [evil game-playing emoticon]

I bet year 9 mum is a buuuuulll shitter! playing the game!

oh also take him to oxford and cambridge a lot and don't pressure, make another excuse like 'seeing' somewhere beyond them geographically, then popping in to 'get lunch' - entitlement and familiarity is ESSENTIAL on the interview days.

I think you should give yourself a massive pat on the back. Your son is really happy attending a great school where they value academic success and achievement, which suits him, and where many children go on to good universities. I hope I will be able to say the same when ds is 11.

Hey joan thanks for reminding! :) You are so right. I forgot that in explaining how to sharpen one's elbows that something really good was happening underneath this all.. I feel a bit teary and humbled actually... [sort of sobered and humbled al together emoticon]