Why do all the decent secondary schools in my area have to be bloody religious schools?

[StaceeJaxx]

DD1 is in year 5 and we're starting to look at secondary schools. She's ASD and has an IEP and is on school action plus, so we're even more aware that the school she goes to has to be the right one.

DH and I aren't in the slightest bit religious at all. I was brought up Catholic but I'm now an atheist. We've brought the dds up to just make their own judgement on God. When dd1 started primary school I was adamant that I wasn't going to start going to church just so she could get into a decent primary. Thankfully the school she goes to doesn't require church attendance.

Now we're looking at secondary schools and all the good ones are religious schools! The rest are complete sink schools that I wouldn't send my worst enemy too. So we're going to have to start going to church every Sunday if we want her to have a decent secondary education. Goes against all my principles, and pisses me off so much, but don't know what else I can do?

Rant over.

chloe74 you really are talking tripe

Nephew-educated super selective grammar in Birmingham
Godson-educated super selective grammar in Kingston
Son-Educated good comp in Wiltshire
All 3 boys have practically identical GCSEs and A level grades
All 3 applied to study science degrees st RG unis, ironically 2 unis were even the same uni
All 3 got offers from their chosen unis -except nephew who was rejected by one
And all 3 now at their first choice uni studying either maths, mathematical engineering or engineering

The difference between them is that DS is much more able to appreciate the qualities of others whether artistic, sporting or just generally being a good friend because he has not been brainwashed into believing you should judge people by the narrow marker of their academic ability

(apologies to other parents with dc at grammar schools who are also able to look beyond academic ability as a measure of a persons worth)

"I just do not think that church going should be a selection method for schooling."

No - especially when it's the parents' faith which is being assessed, and not the child's.

Makes about as much sense as academic selection on the basis of the parents' intelligence rather than the child's.

I think if they are going to select on grounds of faith, they need to start using lie detectors on children. Only select those children who genuinely believe in god. That would rope in quite a few children from atheist households, like mine. (they also believe in the tooth fairy!)

Using the basic measure of 5-plus A*-C grade GCSEs including English and maths, the average percentages of pupils reaching this level from Grammar Schools is 97%, but from Secondary moderns its only 32%.

TalkinPeace2 ? I have never once mentioned your children, the fact that you are taking a public debate personally is really an indication that your vulnerable on the facts.

Why would a sporty kid go to an academic school, they should go to a sports school. Why would an artistic kid want to go to an academic school, they should go to an artistic school. Why would a musical kid want to go to an academic school, they should go to a musical school. You are making the point well that children should be allowed to go to a school that selects for their individual needs. Choice, choice, choice. If a child is a year late being able to pass a selection test, then an all round comprehensive school is probably best for them until they discover what their talents are. I really don?t understand why you are against parents of academic kids giving them the best environment to succeed. Why should a child with a great scientific mind waste his time painting a picture, or banging a piano when its blatantly obvious to everyone they have no artistic or musical skill, and vice versa. Maximise strengths, don't force everyone to be average.

JustGettingByMum ? You can always pick individual children out to prove a point. So many kids now get A?s at GCSE because the exams have been so dumbed down its impossible to tell who the clever ones are, lets get academically rigorous tests. Its only people like you who are fixated on measuring a child's worth by their academic ability. Every child has talent and should be allowed to develop them at the school best suited to it. One size does not fit all, choice, choice, choice.

A parents ?faith? should not be used for selection to a school, neither should the child?s. Children are not born with faith and do not have a religion, it is forced upon them by their parents. Selection should be based on talent, academically, artistically, musically, and sporting etc that children are born with. Religion is something that should be taught in church and not in schools.

Chloe74
Sporty kids to sporty schools
arty kids to arty schools
musical kids to musical schools
Sorry, what planet do you live on.
There are no specialist state schools any more - did you not notice the change in Government a couple of years back?
And in many areas there are only one or two schools - the rest of the UK is not like Islington you know.

You also clearly do not know the difference between a Comprehensive and a Secondary Modern.
My DCs Comp got 78% in your GCSE measure. The comp up the road got 90%

Only half of the Grammar schools in Kent got your magic 97% figure. One in fact only got 89% - less than a Comp.

Get your facts right.

Those are not my figures they are from THE CAMPAIGN FOR REAL EDUCATION.

I can only base my opinion on experience of schools in my area. Of the three nearest by distance State comps they entered a grand total of 0 % of children into the five English Baccalaureate subjects last year. Top set or not if you have a brainy kid they would have a wasted education at those schools. And that is not even talking about the results, just the number of kids who actually entered the exams. So the mythical top set at these schools cannot even do a basic minimum of Maths, English, Science, Language and Humanities. God forbid that they even wanted to excel.

As for specialist schools, after doing the rounds of school open days I found there were schools that specialised in subjects (Sport, Music, Art, Religion etc) and were allowed to select a percentage of students based on abilities in these areas. The only type of selection they weren't allowed to do was on academic ability. That's discrimination in my opinion.

PS I will admit I don't know the difference between Comprehensive and a Secondary Modern, please enlighten.

Chloe74

PS I will admit I don't know the difference between Comprehensive and a Secondary Modern, please enlighten.
ROTFLMAOPMPL
Maybe you and the campaign for real education should find out what is actually going on first.

And I've just checked the DFEE data for 2011 - sorting by 0% ebacc, and LEA and school type.
Where do you live? As it does not appear to be in England

The only type of selection they weren't allowed to do was on academic ability. That's discrimination in my opinion.

I hate it when people throw the term discrimination around in this type of context.

Try getting a job as a disabled person in the workplace, or the parent of a child with multiple SN trying to access suitable, or someone in their mid-fifties trying to find employment. Then you can talk about discrimination.

access suitalbe education of any description.

radical
you are a teacher - I thought all the selection / specialist college guff went out in 2010 . . .. .

And yes, not being able to get into a selective school is a PITA, but there are ways round all things for parents of non disabled children.
Once a child does not fit Gove's mould, you are stuffed.

I live in the south west where there is 80 Schools in the LEA.

10 % of these schools entered 0 or 1 % of their children into the basic 5 subjects, unhappily I live close to some of those schools. I don't have a sporty, artistic or musical child but he is very enthusiastic about science. Yes I am accused of the crime of being a pushy Mum and I do 'coach' my child (mainly because the Primary school they are at doesn't stretch them). But I would have done that in whatever area his talents were, be it football, art, music, or (I think someone mentioned) chicken plucking. What is so wrong with wanting better for you kids and trying to achieve it? I accept in some areas they have good 'comps', but they don't have one we can get into.

We don't have Grammar or Secondary Moderns Schools here and the nearest academic school you would need to be a millionaire to buy a house in the catchment area. If we had an academically selective school in the area my child would almost definitely get in. I don't understand why other parents are so happy to force me to throw my child on the scrap heap of life by denying them a decent education. Why are some parents so afraid of choice?

It make me sick to think my only options are to pretend to be religious, lie to everyone and tell my child to lie to everyone. Or attempt to go private with the risk that I might lose my house.

radicalsubstitution - I know all about discrimination, however I choose not to use it as an excuse. I am not bleating on about how I should be given special treatment, I will fight for what is best for my children its just depressing that other parents are actually opposed to me trying to get a good education so my children can overcome their background on their own.

I hate it when someone uses discrimination as the excuse to drag everyone down to their level.

TalkinPeace2

I think very few specialist schools ever selected based on 'ability' in their specialism. If they did, it was normally based on an LEA policy.

I am, alas, a lowly teacher and not an expert on admissions. I think schools can still call themselves 'specialist' but am not sure if there is any funding available for it any more.

Specialist school status all seemed a bit of a waste of time to me. I knew of one specialist computing school where GCSE computer studies/science wasn't even offered until a year after it was awarded specialist status in maths and computing.

chloe74
In Cornwall, NOT ONE normal state school got 0% in the Ebacc (I am excluding all special schools)
In Devon, NOT ONE normal state school got 0% in the Ebacc
In Somerset, two state schools got 0% in the Ebacc, but one of them is tiny.
In Dorset, NOT ONE normal state school got 0% in the Ebacc

Where did you get your information from?
Mine came from the data set downloaded from the DFE website.

I was told that the funding for specialisms was withdrawn because, as you say, schools abused the system and weren't actually using it for their specialism. However schools are still able to specialise and select for 10% of their intake in that area. Just not academically.

Chloe74, I have absolutely no problem with you doing, or wanting, what is best for your child. I mentioned, in an earlier post, that (almost all) parents must do what is best for their child and should not feel guilty about it.

You have, however, made some very sweeping comments about comprehensive schools, and education in general, that I have found quite offensive. I work in a comprehensive school that prides itself on setting and maintaining extremely high standards for all students.

Not all students choose Ebac subjects, because some choose to study full course RE which is not classes as a humanities subject. Most do. The destinations for our sixth formers post-18 speak for themselves, as do the successes for many students who choose vocational pathways at 16.

I feel that teaching a broad ability range at school helps me to improve my teaching. I do not feel (personally) that schools that narrow their intake or teaching age too much are necessarily able to attract or retain the best teachers. I love teaching A level and would never teach in an 11-16 school - neither would I teach in a sixth form college. I wouldn't like to teach in a single sex school, so the local grammars (yes, there are some) would be out for me.

I do not know what I will do when DS reaches secondary admission time. Of all the multitude of crimes I have committed in my time as a parent, having low expectations or aspirations is not one of them.

chloe74
However schools are still able to specialise and select for 10% of their intake in that area
Link please ....

TalkinPeace2 - Bristol, Gloucestershire, Somerset, Dorset, Wiltshire, Devon, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly are all part of the South West of England, I do not live in any of the four areas you mention but I am not narrowing it further because this is a public form. My information came from personal experience but my facts are backed up on www.education.gov.uk/.

I have been told at open days about specialism selection but just goggling it gave me a link: www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/help-and-advice/choosing-a-school/school-admissions/391/state-school-admissions-how-to-secure-a-place

radicalsubstitution - I apologise if I have made sweeping statements, my only information is for my local city and my comments about schools have been informed by them. The only national policy I would advocate is to separate state funding funding from religious schools. Apart from that Choice choice choice.

I hope to get my kid into a Free School this year, my fingers are crossed... it has a broad social mix, overwhelming parent support, and has attracted amazing teachers (only compared to my other local choices). My worry obviously is if I don't get in we face life changing decisions.

Good Schools Guide is biased opinion not fact.
LEA link please or remove the allegation.

Bristol : One Academy and one Foundation school had 0% ebacc - it has 6 with 1% which is pretty poor admittedly
Gloucestershire : One at 0%, 2 at 1%
Wiltshire : Two schools at 0%
Isles of Scilly - their school got 15.8% Ebacc.

Yes, Bristol is a problem area. Two Oasis Academies is a bit of a giveaway ...
BUT do not judge the rest of the country by one City

Not getting involved in this particular discussion but Chloe74 is correct that schools with a specialism can select up to 10% of their intake based on aptitude. If they have multiple specialisms they can still only select up to 10% of their intake on aptitude - they don't get 10% for each subject. Admissions Code paragraph 1.24 refers.

I'm so sorry I have not read the thread. Are you sure that it would make that much of a difference. Our local faith school 6th form didn't ask for any belief commitment at all on application.

Sixth form entry uses different criteria than Y7. The primary consideration is whether the GCSE grades are good enough. At Y7 most faith schools give priority on faith grounds. In general you are unlikely to get admitted unless you meet the faith criteria, in part because so many parents go to church just to try and get priority for their child. If no-one did that you would stand a much better chance of being admitted without meeting the faith criteria.

Thank you prh47bridge for that link proving my point, I wasn't able to find it and didn't want to give the names of my local schools to prove it directly.

The fact that EBacc was applied retrospectively was a stroke of genius because it stopped schools manipulating their curriculum to look good in league tables. It has given us a true reflection of a schools performance. I personally don't like to rely on league tables and trust my own experience of the school from visits, word of mouth, behavior of pupils etc. Am actually hoping to get my child into a school that inst in the league tables yet.

The point about dropping useless subjects is very relevant, there is a lot of time wasted teaching nonsense. I suppose you could say if a child is no good at maths then its a waste of time teaching him it, but there are a core of areas that a child should learn, as a minimum, to have any chance in the modern world. English, Maths, Science, Humanities and MFL are a pretty good basket to have and every child should learn these to start with. Education should be enjoyable but you still have to learn the basics whether you enjoy them or not and a good teacher can usually make most subjects enjoyable.

One aspect that has skewed league tables has been the use of exams 'equivalent' to GCSE's. What a con that was and I am glad most of them have been dumped.

If you stopped schools selecting on faith they wouldn't close. The church don't own them and they certainly don't pay for them. It would be a simple matter to resolve, declaring that all schools receiving state funding are secular and religion is taught as part of an ethics/philosophy/politics class (delete as appropriate). In reality nothing would change except the admissions discrimination forcing families to pretend to be something they are not. I remember as a child being forced to go to something called a 'Sunday school' which was run and funded by the church (also a bible study class in evening). Whilst it sends shivers down my spine to remember those lessons, should a parent decide to indoctrinate their children this is the way to go and not expect tax payers to fund it.