Tell me if this is normal- year 7 RE

[seeker]

Ds told me he was upset at school today. They are doing RE at the moment, and they are doing a project on various aspects of Christianity. He and another boy have been allocated the Crucifixion. Among other things, ds told me that they have to find out why Jesus was crucified, when and where crucifixion was used as a method of execution, why it stopped being used and whwt happens when someone is crucified.

Is this normal? Ds is already disturbed by some of the stuff he has found out, and they've only been researching it for a day! I am perfectly happy with the findingnout why Jesus was crucified, but I really don't think there is any value in the gory details is there? Or am I missing something?

I suspect all the teacher wanted was a sentence or two along the lines of 'when you're crucified they put nails in your wrists and feet and you suffocate'.

I doubt she was looking for a detailed description of all the physiological changes the crucified body goes through.

When where any why crucifixion was used seems entirely relevant to me, and not particularly disturbing.

(I'm not sure the comment about x rated was really sensible though - reproduction would be x rated in a film, but is obviously taught to 9 year olds.)

And yes, why sugar-coat?

Where have I said anything about sugar coating?

Actually, I don't think that's necessary.

I'd go with 'why Jesus was crucified, when and where crucifixion was used as a method of execution' but how it kills? I'm old and was raised RC and never knew that it caused suffocation. I knew the other bits which have symbolism eg being given vinegar and nailed (rather than tied).

You didn't say sugar coat seeker - I was just agreeing with knowsabit

If you google "how does crucifixion kill you" the first few hits have details that I really don't see why my 11 year old needs to know. And which I certainly don't think a school should direct him to.

Well to answer your question, no I don't think that is normal for year 7 RE.
dd and ds1 did learn a bit about the crucifixion in year 7 but not at the level of detail you described.
I don't think that much detail is necessary and I could see how it could be quite distressing, my dd would have been upset, having to do that level of research.

My son is in Year 8 and he would be upset about finding out details like that. Other,much younger children I know (eg me aged 10!) would not.

The details are relevant because it does help you to understand what is happening when you read the story:

Victims died of asphyxiation as they got weaker and weaker because the hanging position meant that the shoulder blades got pushed into the lungs and the lungs filled with water. The only way to breathe or speak was to stand up on the feet and raise yourself up. If a victim was nailed on the cross, the blood loss made them weaker of course but the pain meant that they could not stand up to breathe, thus hastening death.

The reason they broke the legs to speed up the end was so that the victim could not raise themselves up to breathe, so it would kill them in a very short space of time.

There are lots of descriptions of Jesus lifting himself up to speak. When they put a spear in his side water comes out. Those details are consistent with crucifixion (standing up to speak, lungs full of water), so it makes you realise that this is a real account of a crucifixion, which is important.

Poor Jesus.

I can't think of any reason to have 11 year olds googling positional asphxyia. INRI all that has the religious significance. Not what would have gone on the death certificate.

Actually, the more I think about this, the less appropriate i think it is. Particularly now balloon slayer has said that about the facts backing up the biblical account.

I don't want my child reading about positional asphyxia.

I also don't want school suggesting that the bible should be read as fact because there is this evidence. I don't think for a minute that they have said that, but I can now see how they could. And they shouldn't.

Detailed depictions of torture would be X rated, as would detailed depictions of sex. Both can be described in appropriate terms to young children. Neither are suitable subjects for 11 year olds to research on their own, inevitably using the internet, because of the material they may come across.

Surely that is not controversial?

Whatever the teacher had in mind in terms of his answer, s/he had no control over what he read in producing it, and should have shown more common sense.

And surely teaching caution in internet research is part of internet safety. That is not sugar coating - have those who think it is read some of these descriptions? They are very, very horrible.

I am sorry your ds was upset.

I suppose the teacher could have meant the dragging the cross, being whipped and then attached to it, the cross being raised and the person and being left to die - as opposed to the biology of it. They should have been a lot more specific before sending them off to google though.

Cross-posted, totally agree with your last post seeker.

"I also don't want school suggesting that the bible should be read as fact because there is this evidence."

Gosh I doubt they would say that! And it isn't evidence that the Bible should be read as fact, just that the things that happened were not peculiar to Jesus, just "standard practice." Eg when I was a child, I thought that when Jesus's side was pierced and "blood and water" came out, that was supposed to be some sort of proof of divinity, I thought that "blood and water" was special . . . but it is just normal for a victim of crucifixion.

Balloonslayer, I went to a catholic school and I never understood what the blood and water represented either! That's a really interesting piece of information, thank you.

Sorry, balloon slayer- I misunderstood you- I thought that's what you were saying!

TBH
I would expect the teacher to be looking for the fact that crucifxion was a standard Roman punishment, that Jesus was nothing important to the Romans, that the depiction in Life of Brian is actually one of the most realistic

The blood and water was a test the Romans used to check for death. It has nothing to do with divinity.

Yes I know Knowsabit that's the whole point I was making. When I was a child I thought it was of religious significance due to the way it was presented in RE classes. ("And BLOOD! and WATER! came out") I think I might have mixed it up with water into wine, and wine into blood or something. [confused}

Research, which is what the OP's question is about, has revealed that it was nothing out of the ordinary in the nasty circumstances. So I was trying to point out that perhaps that was why the OP's DC was being asked to research.

There does seem to be a sudden jump in what is appropriate in junior and senior schools.

DS just started secondary had to debate population control, which included what would happen if someone was pregnant with more than the allowed amount of children. This obviously involved discussion about abortion and he was horrified.

I guess they are not babies any more.

Gosh mine started with "cuddly" RE - the school history, the school's patron saint, the house saints and the school motto.

I wouldn't have a problem with abortion, or contraception and population control. I don't have a problem with most things. Torture, however, i do!

I agree with balloon to under go a critical study of the biblical accounts of crucifixion, you would have to understand the norms of crucifixion, and be able to compare them to the biblical accounts.

Stuff like nails through the hands vs wrists etc are important enough to be considered.

I think in year 7 (when I was at school anyway) you also learn in history about 1066 and all sorts of gruesome stuff that happened in historic wars, boiling oil and stuff, you lean about previous kings and queens making people suffer for various reasons etc.

The whole point of these subjects is to encourage independent and critical analysis, evaluating sources etc.

But surely when you're doing RE at this stage what you should be doing is looking at all the major faith groups and at what they believe. Apart from anything else, it seems a shocking waste of time to spend on this sort of thing. The exact cause of Jesus's death is completely irrelevant.

Our Y7 RE teacher didn't send us off to learn about crucifixion, she explained all the details in one harrowing and graphic lesson that I will never forget. I can still remember her ramming an imaginary crown of thorns on to another girl's head

It is young but not ridiculously so. It does seem hard that he and his partner have got this bit when others might have softer bits. Would a teacher think him particularly resilient/diligent or something?

Oooh seeker it isn't irrelevant. Lots of foreshadowing in eg Isaiah. The precise details are hugely significant scripturally inasmuch as they prove what the prophets foretold.