More on early GCSEs

[WilfSell]

DS1 has just told me that apparently they are beginning work for their GCSEs in RE and ICT this year. He has just started Y9. I have no idea what I think about this yet, and would really like the opportunity to find out why from the teachers but until parents' evening, there seems to be no chance to talk to them.

DS1 is so underwhelmed by both subjects that the idea of actually putting any work in at this stage is challenging me him and he's got it into his head that RE won't make the slightest bit of difference to his life so it doesn't matter; and that ICT is so pointless and easy, that doesn't matter either, although he like it marginally more than RE.

I really, really WANT to leave him to his own devices and make his own decisions about how to handle this but he's 13 and knows it ALL AREADY . I don't suppose the school think we have a choice either here.

He will almost certainly be on track for other early GCSE next year, and is fairly able but for one thing he is not yet mature enough to realise he needs to improve his general writing and literacy skills to do well in critical, discursive subjects like RE. So, does he HAVE to do it this year or can I he refuse? Is it better to get it out of the way if he doesn't care about it, even if I think he'd benefit from being stretched in 'written' subjects like RE/humanities? Should I just leave him to get on with it and not care that he thinks it is pointless so he doesn't have to bother with it?

Is it one of these baby GCSEs? They tend to do a 1/2 RE GCSE in Yr 9 (for practice?) I'd say his attitude is completely par for the course and, tbh, I think I agree with him.

Thanks. Yeah, I'm not really that arsed about these subjects per se, but I'm worried about him settling into not caring about writing early on, when later, for more important subjects, it may be more of an issue...

I didn't know about the 'half' business, in fact I know nothing. Still got no idea how to get any information out of the school other than the little DS tells me.

I think taking early GCSEs is crazy.

They really do develop good writing and analytical skills all the way up to the end of Y11.

It depends on the ability of the young person. Some are ready to do them early some not.

I suppose if he's able to cope, and getting the pointless ones some of it out of the way sooner rather than later, getting in some assessment practice, and then being able to focus more on the subjects that matter more challenging things later, then this is a good thing, right?

So long as he has 8ish decent grades later on, from exams taken at the same time-ish, then that keeps his options open? Even if he ends up with poor grades in these ones?

I am much more concerned about his early maths stuff (he's also taking stats this year too apparently) but the school has assured me that his set will be fine, and should all achieve their best.

One question you might want to ask is when will they be entered and is that all or some of the students?

At our school, they all begin working on GCSEs in year 9, but there are a range of decisions about entry.

Some students will be entered for subjects in year 9, but others wait for year 10 or 11.

Those taking triple science take one intesively each year (eg biology year 9, chemistry year 10) but only the strongest students are allowed to take triple and there has been no drop in grades.

I don't think it is very profitable to think of some subjects as pointless. If you say this to enough people, you are bound to be hurtful at some point. Is that what you want to do?

There are merits in all subjects.

Even if you don't value a subject and your child would never study it for A-level, it will persist on his CV and UCAS form. This is because the final grade in any subject is reported. Your child should be trying to get the highest grade he can.

I think early entry in any subject is a huge mistake except for cases where the child is guaranteed an A*. Mostly it is done for the school's benefit so they can "bank" some grade Cs and above.
GCSEs are designed for 16 year olds, "useless" RE involves a lot of philosophy and Ethics. My DS would have done very badly in it at 13 but got A* in RE at 16 when he was much more mature.
Plus I hear Mr Gove plans to stop schools doing early entry?

Yes Gove is so against early entry he is standing by as pupils who sat early entry in GCSE English in Jan 2012 achieved a C grade at 12.5% lower than one who sat the exam in June 2012. Approx 75,000 16 year olds are wishing their schools had sat English early entry. Sorry secret the recent results have justified school's actions and made Gove look a complete fool.

Take your agenda to another thread

Hey listen, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. FWIW I was actually half joking and half parroting DS!. I teach a subject very close to RE meself in a university and it is constantly derided in the world at large, so any humour on my part was meant to be self-effacing but you wouldn't know that!

Of course, you'll see from some of my comments also that I VALUE critical/discursive subjects such as RE; I just wish I could just get my son, who sees the world in black and white like a scientist and cannot see the point of writing, or religion, I know I'd be fighting a losing battle trying to get him to aspire to a decent grade. In which case, I do think there is little point in him doing it early,since he will not do very well I predict. The maths, no problem as i am fairly sure, if he carries on as now, he can achieve an A/A* early. But then I'm mixed up about what happens later: am happy he'll be stretched and in maths there is really no point in making them wait when they can just do it. But as I understand it, he'll be doing AS maths in Y11. In which case, what would he do in Y12/13 if he wanted to go on and do maths at A2? I'm v confused.

I really really want him to mature into writing, as even die-hard scientists need to be able to do it. I fear it may well be too soon for him in these kinds of skills/sensitivities and the RE experience may switch him off from it. It doesn't help that the RE teacher is apparently dull and simply bores them all to sleep. Ho hum.

I seriously hope that he doesn't see black/white thinking as anything to do with science.

Nope, he sees it as being how his world is as a 13 yo. No need for the concern, I'm quite able to challenge his world view meself.

I'm a head of RE in a comp and I start RE GCSE in year 9, not to do early entry, but because school only allow me 1 hour per week and the only possible way to teach a full course is to do it over 3 years. It might be that reason he's started early? It's not an uncommon scenario in RE departments.

Pottering, yes, he has just told me today that in fact it is a bit of the whole programme so he'll be doing some assessments this year but not completing it till whenever. Mainly it is his dripfeed of information and the lack of info from the school that is the issue. I do wish I could just let the professionals get on with their job but I can't leave alone

My DD took ICT and DT in yr 10 at her old school.
The school do this for 2 reasons.
The first is to free up timetable space in yr 11.
The second is that the school have found over the years that most students tend to neglect these subjects in yr 11 for their other subjects.

Kids who sit GCSE maths early then start AS in Y11 tend not to do very well at AS compared to those who sit it in Y12 as they are supposed to, I believe. Then they are faced with the dilemma of resitting in Y12, when the best unis frown on resits. There is also the issue of then being tied to the school for further education because other sixth forms won't be set up for kids who already have AS maths and want to do A2, especially if they teach a different exam board. It's much better for schools to offer breadth at GCSE, so additional maths, or GCSE stats or a FSMQ would be a better option than just plowing on with AS.

Really noble? eeek.

DS1 is a very able mathematician, as are many others in his set. He got 100% in his Y6 SATs which probably isn't so unusual in people who are good at maths, and has been fasttracked by the school. So I suppose I've been happy with the approach so far. So I'd be really interested to hear about whether the evidence on AS in Y11 affects students of all abilities as a generality, and whether able students are somehow more immune?

The school doesn't have a sixth form btw so he'd have to go somewhere else anyway. Perhaps if he is still into maths at that point, we'll need to find somewhere that will provide appropriate Y12/13 options? The options are likely to be a pretty poor sixth form college nearby, a pretty good one (AFAIK) a long way way, a catholic selective and a private selective.

He is oblivious to all my angst of course, and wishes I would just Stop Asking Him about school. I won't though

PS he's already supposed to be doing GCSE Stats this year, in Y9.

Ah it's not good is it,if their options are limited by the school. What to do about it? Has any parent tried to refuse?

I guess if I knew it was likely to have poor outcomes, I'd perhaps consider moving DS1 but the school seems good overall. How do we really know, we're all novices at this business, so the school knows best approach is all we can go with. Argh.

Students who take AS in Y11 are going to be the brightest mathematicians, so if there is evidence of lower results, it will be affecting bright mathematicians. I've not been able to find any specific web link about the effect of sitting AS in Y11 but certainly the consensus on the TES maths forum is that it affects results. When my school was investigating options for our top sets, we also came to the same conclusion from discussions with other schools so we decided against it for that reason.

Early entry to GCSE definitely disadvantages students, even at the top end. The DfE details all the evidence here. It seems that if a bright student gets an A in Y10, they are unlikely to be offered the opportunity to resit and get an A in Y11 although they could have got an A if they'd sat at the proper time. They would then also have been more likely to progress to A-level. Students who get lower grades are more likely to be offered the chance to resit, but an A is seen as 'good enough'.

This link from Cambridge University specifically advises against early entry for A-levels. It points out that if you want to sit a maths-based course at uni, but took your maths A-level in Y11 and Y12 you would then have the possibility of having spent Y13 not studying maths and would be at a disadvantage when starting the course. I think some universities do not count the early A-level in your offer as they want you to show that you can get the required results from sitting all three specified A-levels at the same time, thus showing you can cope with the workload.

Yes, of course. Oh good grief, now I'm going to have to worry about maths. If you were me (you sound like a teacher noblegiraffe?) how would you handle it?

Taking GCSEs a year early seems to work ok at Dd1s school (up to now anyway).