State school South London specialising in music?

[Shagmundfreud]

Thinking ahead now for ds, who has just started in y4. He should be grade 3 or 4 in piano by then, has a very good ear (according to his music teacher), and is enthusiastic about entering competitions (probably because he won the only one he's so far entered last year. Came first in his class of 24). I appreciate he will not be of a standard to get a scholarship to any of the good private schools, plus we can't afford to have him learn a second instrument at the moment or any time in the near future. Also we would probably not be eligible for a bursary and can't afford fees (75K household income, but 3 children and big mortgage). He really loves music and would appreciate being at a school where it's considered an important part of the curriculum.

Is there such a thing as a state school that has really good provision for music? And can select on the basis of ability in music?

Oh, and we are also not church goers, so faith schools are probably out of the equation!

Where are you? I'd suggest Haberdasher Aske's Hatcham might be worth a look.

Kingsdale has a well-deserved reputation for music, & - like Haberdasher's I think - offers music scholarships which consist of free instrument lessons to students selected by aptitude. Music is taken very seriously there - & free lessons in your main instrument mean it's easier to afford lessons in a 2nd instrument .

I'd suggest trying to go to a concert at both schools, if there is one open to general public (i.e. not parents only) to get a feel for the standard & enthusiasm of the students & music staff.

I think there might be a Summer Festival at Kingsdale which is open to all? And there must be something similar for Haberdasher's - or even phone the music departments of each school & ask if their pupils will be playing in public anywhere.

I think there are quite a few schools that select by music aptitude. Maybe just search the admission criteria, borough by borough? Chelsea Academy is one - just north of the river at Imperial Wharf - change at Clapham Junction. Tiffin Boys (Kingston) has a good music department. The Brit School in Selhurst (near Croydon) has entry in year 10 for music specialism, so that might be another option later on.

You might find the below from Lambeth interesting:

"From September 2012 Charles Edward Brooke Girl's School will become known as Saint Gabriel's College. This school will admit boys and girls from September 2012.

...........................................................
Music Scholarship places

10% of places will be offered to children who demonstrate that they have the aptitude to benefit from a place at a specialist music school. Places will be allocated on the basis of an aptitude test carried out in October to include performance either as a vocalist or instrumentalist and a test of aural perception and awareness. Applicants will be placed in rank order according to their total score in the aptitude test.
Those not offered a specialist place will automatically be considered for a place under the general admission criteria.
All students at St Gabriel?s College have the opportunity to apply for peripatetic music lessons. Parents applying for a Music Scholarship place must complete the relevant section on the Supplementary Information Form available from the school, as well as the Common Application Form from the Local Education Authority."

That is interesting - I was thinking of Charles Edward Brooke, but didn't mention it as I only knew it as a girl's school.

I went to a summer concert there a couple of years back and was really impressed by the music (and drama) students, and by the school generally. I think going co-ed will be a really good move for them - just remembered that Norwood School did the same and seem to be doing well, I think Norwood also have a performing arts specialism.

There are also some schools that don't specialise or offer scholarships or selection for music, but still have good provision - off the top of my head I think Charter School in Dulwich have some good things going on, but you would have live very close to get in, unless they change their current admission criteria.

I'd second Haberdasher's Askes' Hatcham, not far from New Cross, train and Overground, ELL.This schools is alos strong on the academic side.

For anyone reading this thread with a daughter, there is also Prendergast on Hilly Fields. The two schools do a joint music exam.

btw - Charles Edward Brooke / Saint Gabriel's is a CofE school - but it has a long tradition of offering a high number of 'open places' to non-church pupils, another reason I like it.

Thank you everyone, really helpful information!

Haberdasher's Askes' was the most oversubscribed state school in the country when I worked for the LEA back in 2006, even being in New Cross (at the time was where the youngest child in the UK found in possession of a gun was) it was THAT good!

Kingsdale offers free tuition and many other opportunities to music scholars, and the scholarships are offered on aptitude. The advantage to you could be that Kingsdale does not admit on distance, but on a lottery, so where you live is not an issue. However, the admissions of those who pass the aptitude test at scholar level is also then on lottery. They also offer half scholarships - look at their prospectus to see which each level offers, or they will explain it at Open Day.

St Gabriel's would offer on the basis of order of merit - so that is another opportunity.

All the other schools which offer a strong support for music will depend on an admission criteria based on distance, except Graveney if he were to pass the Graveney admission test for out of catchment children (this is not a music test). Both Graveney in Wandsworth and Dunraven in Lambeth offer strong support for music, have good clubs and orchestras and extra curricular activities and offer reasonable tuition fees for individual lessons. For example, £50 a half term.

He is in Yr 4. He may pursue music with all his soul, or he may go off it completely. I would look at schools that will suit his education and then make sure they have a wide music offer, rather than base his whole school career on his good ear!

Streatham, he's a bright, intellectually curious child who'd thrive in a school that had a high intake of similar children, such a grammar school or a high performing comp. Unfortunately the local schools don't fall into this category. We are right on the edge of the catchment area of one very good comp but it's MASSIVELY oversubscribed. I think our chances of finding any school that we're happy with for him are not great at the moment to be honest.

I do feel a bit peed off sometimes that our choices are so circumscribed by living in a poor area, not having enough money to go private or pay for 2 years of 11+ tutoring in addition to piano (which is what every other parent who's got their child into the massively popular grammar has had to do), and not having much of a chance at getting into a church school. We can't afford to move either. Sometimes I feel like crying about the whole thing. The music aspect is important to us because it seems to offer another possible way into a good school out of our catchment area.

I do worry. He's tiny and quite camp as well. They'll make mincemeat of him at our local comp.

Vaguely, what area of S London are you in Shagmund? Nearest secondaries?

I know there are big 'black holes' in S London..but remember that the 'last distance' that the schools publish is usually that of the first round of offers and doesn't take into account all the movement on the list that goes on before the start of term. Do you feel the good comp nearby is a real no-hoper? There are peple on here who have got kids into Graveney and the Sutton grammars with home practice of the Bonds test papers type excercises, I think.

The Kingsdale admissions system mystifies me a bit, but the lottery for music scholarships is much less competitive than the lottery for general admissions.

Elm Green has excellent pastoral care, people are very positive about Harris Boys East Dulwich (but the catchment is shrinking and will shrink more as they have had an outstanding rating, I think) , Charter...but maybe none of these are your area.

If you are in Lambeth is he a member of Lambeth Music Service - they do very very reasonable tuition costs.

St Cecilias Wandsworth (next to Southfields tube station) is a specialist music secondary school. 15 places are offered on musical ability and you get free music lessons for one instrument so this might be worth looking at. Also very kind caring environment and good pastoral care.

Lisaletta we looked at St Cecilia's and didn't see any evidence of a kind or caring environment or good pastoral care (2009). Do you work there Lisaletta because we didn't see any evidence of what you refer to when we visited although I understand there has been a new head since. We know at least three children who were moved to the private sector because they were not being stretched and parents found the head exceptionally poor, probably 2008/9 ish so things may have changed.

My DD is there and is very happy and well looked after. I know lots of parents with kids there as well. Agree totally that it is not a pushy academic school, some pupils get good results but they would probably have done well anywhere. There are a lot of very good teachers there and a very kind caring atmosphere. It is a Christian school and that comes across in the sense of community although religion is def not pushed down your throat. I don't know of any bullying there (I am not saying it never happens however) and it is definitely a very happy place. There is a mixture of black and white kids not many children with English as a second language and they all seem to rub along together. It is a comprehensive school not selective so if you are looking for a top notch academic place or grammar school style then really not the place for you. The old head was a bit weird but he has gone now the new head is a young guy very well liked who was previously deputy. Too early to say what he will do differently however. Nowhere is perfect and I certainly have my gripes about the place but pastoral care is outstanding.

Ashcroft has the up and coming reputation locally as the state comp to go (outstanding ofsted) so St Cs will have to watch its laurels. Graveney still has a good rep but pastoral care not meant to be so strong so depends on whether your kid needs this.

Kingsdale and Habs are fantastic. However, the Habs Music Aptitude Test is on the 9th of October so you'll have to get the form in quick if you want to put him forward for that. Kingsdale Open Days are happening now so the deadline for Music Scholarship entry is a bit later. I think you'll be quite amazed by the Music Department at Kingsdale - it's definitely the highlight of the Open Day!

St Cecilia has their last open day today, between 18.30 and 20.30.
We went to their open day a few days ago, and I am taking ds1 with me tonight, so he can see it too.

Incidentally our guide told us she found it hard to settle into year 7, and had experienced bullying the entire year, and felt that it had not been dealt with satisfactorily. She said the pastoral care was great in that they listened to her. It just did not help with the bullying.

I also have a thread about South West London schools, which by now has become a useful reference, so might be worth looking it up.

Hinchley Wood has a very good reputation for music. It's a specialist school. Has loads of choirs, bands, orchestras, and does at least one or more overseas exchanges each year - open to anyone who joins an extra-curricular music group, where they perform in concerts and music festivals. Our DC have been over to them from primary to do several music workshops. They did a fabulous boys' choir session - had all these cooler-than-thou Yr5 boys singing their hearts out to Shakespearean hey-diddle type songs as though they were hit singles. It's a nice school.

Bacons College in Rotherhithe also has a great reputation for music.

Hi Shagmunfreud. Turing House School is due to open in Richmond Borough in 2014 and will have specialisms in science, engineering and music. It won't select by aptitude though.

Would highly recommend Kingsdale. My Ds plays the trumpet , he hasn't got a music scholarship but gets a free individual lesson weekly. The music staff are amazing esp the head of Music who is a legend and they have all been supportive of Ds despite braces making his trumpet playing a challenge this year.
The concerts are spectacular & reflect the very happy ethos of the school. Good luck , I live in Lambeth & felt in a similar position when looking for secondary's but got very lucky with Kingsdale.

Shagmund, I know you aren't churchgoers bit would you be prepared for him to sing in a church choir? If he is really musical with a nice voice, see if you can get him voice tested at the Temple church. The choristers do to their home primary but practice on sat and sing on Sunday. The musical training is fab. They are almost certain to get a music scholarship to a secondary school.

The son of acquaintances has done this. It's a commitment but cannot recommend too highly.

Kingsdale was my other thought.

It might be worth giving Bromley Youth Music Trust a ring in September to see what they would say about music provision at the secondaries in Bromley -- BYMT has produced many world class musicians! Langley Boys has a brand new concert hall.

I don't know if lack of religion is a drawback but would you consider cathedral/choir schools? My cousins received a terrific music education at one. They are not well off nor religious in the slightest, as far as I know.