How do you know if a grammar school will suit your child?

[TwiggysGoneOnHolidayByMistake]

DD (just started Y5) wants to go to a grammar school but how do I know whether this would suit her academically, even assuming that she would get in (of which I am doubtful)? Her English and verbal reasoning is great but she's decidely average at maths and has been a little below average in the past. I'm sure we could coach her into passing the 11+ but I don't want to do that as it might mean that she's 'falsely' passed iyswim. ie. sure, she might scrape through the 11+ with coaching but if she needed coaching to get through it then doesn't that mean she wouldn't be at the right standard to cope with the work - does that make sense? She really, really wants to go and I want to help her but I dread her being pushed beyond her ability.

Is the best thing to just let her take the 11+ without any coaching and if she passes then she'd be ok but if doesn't then she wouldn't? I'm not sure if it's as simple as that though...

Well we went through stuff at home -no external tutoring - because DS wanted to have a go at the 11+. We had always thought him quite bright but you don't really know the level of the other children they are up again.... I think if you do some practice papers you will get some idea of how able she is. DS isn't really clever at English at all and we rather left that to Fate TBQH but because he is relatively good at maths and NVR/VR we felt he should go for it....He passed all three that he took and is currently at a superselective....

I guess you could consider asking the teachers at school what they think about her chances. Although many state school teachers aren't necessarily pro grammar schools, most will honestly give you an idea of their chances.

Not all the children will be equally good at everything even once they get to grammar school. DS's school is giving them a maths test tomorrow to set them according to ability and then they will work at their natural levels. Certainly remember when I was at a grammar school many moons ago that we were in sets and in those days the bottom two sets took the 16+ exam which covered GCE and CSE....

I think most parents have a gut instinct about their DCs abilities and just because a child isn't naturally a future poet laureate or an Albert Einstein it doesn't meant that their overall intelligence levels and aptitudes in other subjects might not make them very able pupils in a grammar school environment.

The enthusiasm could mean that she is willing to work very hard to get in and I think this motivation is always good for kids.
You could ask her teacher what they think of the idea?
Also, get some practice papers, show your daughter and perhaps get her to do one of the Maths and mark it so you can see how far away she is.
With regards to a grammar suiting her, just as with any school it depends on which one it is. Some are much much more rigorous than others. Go and visit and see if you both like it?

Definitely ask her teacher's opinion (though be aware of bias against grammars). Is she likely to be a solid level 4 as a minimum in maths and higher in English next year?
Is it a normal grammar (top 25%) not superselective (top 5%)?
If so to both of the above, I would think it is definitely worth consideration. As tiger says, determination to work hard should really stand her in good stead if she goes there. The grammar teachers that I know of are really much happier having hard working, slightly above average children than lazy very clever children. Bear in mind that she also needs to work quickly (we decided against grammar for ds as he is'clever' enough but not 'speedy' enough - and our local grammars have 6 shorter lessons per day with at least 4 homeworks as opposed to 4 longer lessons with around 2 homeworks at the comps, and indeed the independent he's gone to).
At our grammar school we do get 'heavily coached to pass the test' (NVR/VR) children but as long as they were a solid level 4 in yr6 and continue to work hard, they'll do fine. (The heavily coached level 3 children, on the other hand, continue to struggle).

Thanks, Tiger, but hard work isn't exactly my DD :) The phrase 'bare minimum' springs to mind! That's not to say that she isn't capable, just that she'd take the easy way out, given the choice.

I had thought of past papers but given that nobody would mark them, how am I supposed to judge how well she does? (or do they come with answers and expected pass marks?)

Gazzalw, that's a very good point about not all pupils being good at everything at grammar school! I will leave speak to her teacher, thanks.

KitKat, she is very close to a level 4 in English already but not sure about maths - she was 3b at the end of Y4 but I've not been told what they they expect at end of Y6. As far as normal vs. superselective, I have no idea! I've only jsut begin to think about secondary schools and I don't even know the difference Clearly I need to do some research :)

I'm so glad you mentioned working quickly as I'd never even thought of that. She is very slow with written work so that sounds like it would defintiely hold her back. An important thing to bear in mind, thank you!

We live in a grammar area where every child is put in for the 11+ (oe opts out, not he other way round)

I knew DS2 was grammar material. He goes to the leading boys state grammar in the country. DS3, on paper, is brighter than DS2. He isn't brighter and his whole attitude to pressure and stress would have caused a cataclysmic breakdown. He's doing very nicely, top set, secondary modern. More relaxed approach. But he also needed a co-ed environment, an alpha male, like DS2 he isn't

I know where you are coming from
I went to Grammar school yonks back,and there were a few pupils who really struggled,which made their years there very hard and other pupils felt sorry for them
I dont know what happened to them afterwards,so no idea whether everything turned out all right in the end or not.
I would ask teachers.Also if you got a coach temporarily,they would be able to highlight things,and hopefully give a totally unbiased view of your DDs capabilities.
I wouldnt put pressure on her,and would keep your options open,and go and have a look round other schools too.It may also partly swing where you send her as to where her friends are going,though most pupils of that age are adaptable.And it would be easier to transfer her out of the Grammar school and into another one,rather than the other way round I suspect.
Just to make it clear,I do not work in education,,so am not a professional.

A child with a borderline 11+ pass statistically doe better in a grammar school environment.I'd say send them.If they don't get on with it, then you can look at moving.The way I see it is that it's a lot easier to move from grammar to comp, than the other way round (there would be no places!)

You can't know is the short answer to the op. But from my experience competition for grammar school places is generally so stiff most kids do some form of preparation so standards are quite high. If you do nothing, unless your child is really bright, they are unlikely to pass. It's a fine balance between leveling the playing field so that your child is competing fairly against kids who have been heavily coached, but not coaching them so much that they get into a school which doesn't suit them.

In selective areas the presence of grammar schools is often to the detriment of other schools. But if you live in an area with just say one super-selective grammar school then there would hopefully be some good non-selective schools to choose from.

I agree with catwoo that children who just scrape into grammars often benefit the most from them. However, the most telling comment in your original post is that your dd doesn't like working hard. I have 3 kids at grammar. One passed by a huge amount, one by a very comfortable amount and one by a few marks. Guess which one gets the best results? Yes, the one who just scraped in. He is the one who is very focused, very competitive, applies himself and works hard. The other two are quite lazy and come nowhere near to fulfilling their potential.

Where I live kids who pass the 11+ tend to be level 5 in maths and english by the end of year 6 (although being at those levels is by no means a guarantee of a pass). If you want more information about the test in your area and how to prepare your child look on the eleven plus forum.

I suggest you have a look at the Eleven Plus forum for your local area as they have lots of local knowledge and advice as to which practice papers to use. I have found them very useful as my DS3 is about to take his 11+ next month but DS1 and 2 weren't really grammar school material and are doing well in a local comprehensive. I had no idea what I should be doing, but I have done some practice at home with DS3 over the summer holidays and he's now getting 90% on average on the VR GL assessment practice papers, which are the ones most applicable to my area. I think most people in my area use tutors, starting in Y5, so if your DD wants a fair crack, you should either think of tutors or at the very least practising at home, or she will be at a disadvantage in comparison to others taking the test. We only have super selective grammar schools in my LA, however, and only 5% of DC go to grammar, so competition is pretty fierce. It may be different in your LA. Good luck.

I say give it a go.

If everyone tutors then having her tutored doesn't necessarily mean that she wouldn't be able to keep up at grammar, just that she's evened the playing field again. It would be better if no one tutored, then what you say would be true. That's not going to happen though!

To succeed at grammar you need to be able, but also motivated. Don't underestimate the motivation factor. I've often heard people say "oh my DD/DS is bright enough for the grammar, they are just lazy". So not suited to the grammar then... your DD sounds like she would have a great shot!

And look very closely at the school. Some grammar schools, dispite brilliant results are dull, unexciting places to be, while some non selectives are dynamic, busy, buzzy places. And vice versa. Look at the sport and the music and the art.

Thanks again, everyone, I will check out that 11+ forum. Good point about everyone probably tutoring, kakapo! My gut feeling is that a grammar school wouldn't suit her but we will take a look at the schools and see.

IME if you have to force the kid to do the practice papers they won't like the school.

Abd keep off that website. They're nuts.

I'd recommend Eleven Plus Exams as well. There's alot of info on there, plus a good forum section.

Don't think they're all nuts on the 11+ Forum but there are a few totally obsessed ones who seem to have axes to grind!

When she's a t secondary school do you think she'll be more motivated by being towards the top of a class in a comp/secondary modern or being more towards the bottom of a class in a grammar?

Some kids will be motivated by other high achieving kids and want to work hard to keep up. Other kids will take the "I'm thick and stipid as everyone is better than me" attitude and switch off.

Ask the grammar school about how much homework is expected a night - ots often quite a bit more than from a comp. Again how do you think your dd will cope when faced with 90mins+ of homework a night.

Do try some past papers (multiple choice so you can mark them yourself). She might find Non Verbal Reasoning very tough, and you need to know that,

Pay close attention to what the moderators say on that forum- they are a mine of useful and generously given information. Generally speaking, with some honourable exceptions, take whwt other posters say with a pinch of salt.

My Dc are at a grammar school and I have to say it does seem pretty boring.Even the evening for prospective parents/Y6s was enough to bore a glass eye to sleep.The lessons are mostly 'chalk and talk'. Although having said that it does seem to work.My DB works at a flagship comp where every lesson is supposed to be fun fun fun.He has done an unofficial experiment with his top and middle ability sets and says that he found traditional classroom layout and teaching styles clearly produced better standards.

Agree. Teaching very boring. Very

If she gets in, she'll be fine. don't worry.

PS have had three get in to a grammar school, one still there....