Will my DS need and Eng Bacc to get an apprenticeship- 5 years hence??!

[Tansie]

And, how long is a piece of string? Ds2 is 11.

DS2 isn't very academic. I strongly suspect his future income potential will come from brick laying or electrics, which is absolutely fine by me, I should add. We have Ph.D. physicists and successful cabinet makers in our families.

As I was driving home a couple of hours ago, there was a woman on R2, on drive time, from the Apprentice Scheme Thingy saying that some apprentice employers (we are talking the 16+ ones here, not post-'A' level BAE stylee!) might look for GCSE Maths or English. I confess I'd've thought the Eng Bacc will be the absolute baseline any employer would look for in an apprentice these days, but I am old. I am 'O' level old, when you needed 6 'O' level passes to get into my GS 6th Form, but they were a different kettle of fish. My DB got an apprenticeship in Patisserie Chef'ery on 2 CSEs, for instance.

So, bearing in mind there's no way on God's sweet Earth that DS2 will pass GCSE Spanish, and that I will focus on an English GCSE Foundation (is that what it's called? Or do I mean 'Lang.' v. 'Lit'- ha!) pass as, though he got a 4 in his KS2 SATS (after a year of intense ££ tutoring) he struggles, which kyboshes his Humanity subjects, and hoping his Maths and Foundation Science hold up- is there a chance that DS2 might not end up derelict?!

The EBac probably will not exist by the time your DS is leaving school. He is one of a huge number of children for whom it is not necessary and not appropriate to try and force into doing a foreign language just to meet the expectations of a load of privately educated men who think they know about education. GGGGRRRR, EBAC and Conservatives in general, GGGGRRRR.

In terms of apprenticeships (this is something I knew a lot about by my info is about 5 years out of date!)
Some eg. Gas, electrical, engineering need 5 A-C grades including English, Maths and Science and/or a technology plus you need to pass assessment tests which test spacial awareness, logic etc - kind of hard to explain. Some motor vehicle, usually the big manufacturers want 5 A-C but most especially they take Ds. Obviously you want to get with a big employer if at all possible as generally they offer better training and higher wages (bare in mind apprentice wages are very low). Things like bricklaying and carpentry ask for basic level maths and English only, proved by GCSEs or equivalent tests. But you need loads of enthusiasm. The difficult bit is getting an employer to take you, you need to know what you want to do and why, not just "I want a trade" which is a common response.

So, I would support your DS to do his best at school and pick the options that will suit him rather than that meet the Ebac or anything else. Then I would get him as much guidance on careers as possible - try and get him speaking to people in as many jobs as possible, try and arrange your own work experience for him. (although this will be difficult in construction it sometimes can be done if you know the right people) Get him thinking seriously about what he wants to do so that when he comes to leave school he is motivated and can speak about what he wants to do and why, not just that he hasn't done that well in school so 'wants a trade'.

My DS starts his apprenticeship this September.
He got an E in MFL gcse and took music instead of history/geography. He did need maths, science and english at grade C but the firm did their own tests and they were the ones that counted. I'm sure he was tested in english, maths and IT and lots of sciencey type questions were asked at the interview stage (3 people interviewing him!). He also had a practical test to see how he managed with hand tools and how he could follow verbal and written instructions. He also had to have a medical.
I would say focus on maths, english and science and anything he enjoys and is good at. All my DS helped DH with diy at home and learnt to use tools measure accurately etc. Also check less obvious things.....he won't be able to work on electric cables if he is colour blind (one of the reasons they have a medical), and allergies could rule him out of other trades.

Schools are measured by the EBacc and therefore put pressure on students to do it. No, he won't need it - it is not a qualification at all, it is a performance measure. Focus on Maths and English, and subjects you know he enjoys and is good at. I am responsible for options advice in my secondary school, and the tricks some schools try to get kids on to it are awful. At the end of the day 5A*-C including English and Maths, as many as possible to be actual GCSE exams, is likely to be the benchmark over the long run.

Wages are low to start with but many larger firms especially utility companies really look after their appentices. They pay for all accomodation, food and transport while they are away training and provide all the clothes and kit. My olders son's firm even paid for some lads to have driving lessons because they all needed to be able to drive by the end of the 4 year course.

Thanks for all the input.

I confess I don't know much about apprenticeships- my knowledge literally dates from 1976 when my DB did his C&G. And DS2 is just going into Y7, but I am a realist, thus I recognise that some apprenticeships start with 'A' levels now, so I won't accept some of my work colleagues telling me I'm doing DS a disservice by beginning to look at apprenticeships as a pathway for him as opposed to the futile drive to get-him-into-university-at-all-costs, the days of which are, in my opinion, rightly numbered! This has only happened since the (previous) government did such a good hatchet job on the credibility of anything other than GCSEs, AS and A levels. What happened to HNCs? HNDs? Technical colleges? ( called 'Techs' not dressed up just-as-good-as-6th-Form-honestly!- when they're different to 6th Form, aren't/weren't they?!) and Polytechnics, for that matter

I already guessed that the days of 'go do any old apprenticeship since you're rubbish at school-work' are long gone- that would-be apprentices have to 'sell' themselves to potential apprenticeship-providing employers. So thanks for the advice about how to set about that.

I actually feel encouraged for the first time that there will be something meaningful for DS2 to do, now that the 'Uni Fees thing' is causing the (re)blossoming of alternatives! Silver lining, anyone?!

My DD will start her apprenticeship in September. We've found with the 2 colleges we've applied for that they were more interested in the fact that she has found her own work 'placement' than the GCSE results. Some of them allow the candidates to re-take Maths and English as Functional Skills exams which give the equivalent GCSE short course grades. I think they need to get level 2 (3 exams) which equates to a short course GCSE grade B?

One of my pet hates (professionally) is that colleagues often refer disparagingly to "vocational" subjects. Honestly, what could be better than to have a vocation? And if you aren't academic - if I am honest, actually, if you can't just perform in class in line with 29 others all doing boring things, like the lovechild of a synchronised swimmer and the shredded wheat granny knitters - school is too often unrewarding, which leads to failure. NOT ALL TEACHERS!!! I would like to think many do better. But this was the experience of my oldest son, and the description was his, not mine. I experienced a smidgen of how bad school can be when I was forced to do music. I am not musical and every lesson I messed about and failed. If that is your English or Maths experience, it would be horrendous.

I have lost count of the number of (usually male) ex-students who (as a year head) I was constantly having to rescue from lessons that they were unsuited to, that have come up to me in the street with lovely success stories, having done something practical that they were really good at. And they were earning a lot more than the unemployed graduates with a degree in Basketweaving from the University of Nowhere.

Funky Skills (re the last poster) do exist but I think they will disappear soon, so I wouldn't invest much hope there. Also, the Maths and ICT are notoriously quite hard. English GCSE, though, is much easier to pass as a well motivated 17 year old than a resentful 16 year old, and I would think maths was similar!

Apprenticeships are a really good way forward, but I would avoid any of the school-based apprenticeships at KS4 and focus on the core GCSEs and keep the apprenticeship for post-16.

Thanks for that advice, re the functional skills and post 16 apprenticeships.

I know the Germans start their DC on apprenticeships younger than 16 but I gather theirs is a long established and well regarded system, whereas ours will have changed 20 times by the time mine DSs get there as we have an oddly screwed up attitude to anything non-academic, the results of 50 years of this mindset having just now come home to roost.... we can't bear that our DCs achieve anything that can't be directly equated to GCSEs, equivalency is all, regardless of whether that comparison is actually meaningless.

I have no problem with the concept of 'O' levels for the academic and CSEs for the Functional. I'd far rather DS2 didn't waste any of his or the school's time doing more than a year of a MFL, for instance. I know there are plenty who will throw their hands up in the air declaring that some are late developers and how unfair it'd be to close any doors, but really, what %age of DC does this apply to compared to how many 15 and 16 year olds are sitting is serried rows, bored out of their minds listening to stuff that is way beyond their ability or inclination to grasp as One-size-fits-all?

Hear hear! Not to mention that years of failure doesn't do much for the self esteem. Scope to do something successfully, whether it is Latin or building, is what we all need and I wish those in government would acknowledge the worth of skills. I bet Mr Gove couldn't milk a cow or plaster a wall. That is why he doesn't value those skills, and should.