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Original poster

Advice needed regarding Penalty Notice

27 replies

Credo33 · 08/08/2012 21:02

Background ......

All four of our kids have attended or do attend the same secondary school - a total of 22 years at the school so far. All are top quartile performers with no issues of any sort. None have ever been taken out of school in term time and we've never had any issues with the school at any time.

This year, we had a very special family reunion/holiday in July, involving family from overseas. Finding a time when all could attend was a nightmare but we settled in the end for a week that concluded just four days before the end of term, knowing that this would have minimal impact on our two kids (still at the school) education.

We followed school procedures in filling out authorisation forms and one of our kids came back as unathorised because his attendance for the year (?) was 2% below minimum required - due to him having two weeks off earlier in the year with a doctor backed illness.

We took our holiday (a) because we had no option to cancel or leave him (14 year old) at home and (b) because we believed his attendance % would have been fine by then. We were tempted to ring in and claim he was "sick" but felt uncomfortable with doing that so didn't.

To our surprise, we received a letter from the school posted on the last day of term stating that they had applied for a penalty notice. It didn't say what a penalty notice was and we were certainly not aware what it meant - we figured it was some sort of "slap on the wrist". We tried to speak to the school but term was over and we got nowhere.

The local authorities then sent us a notice and we learned, to our horror, that we had to pay a lot of money for - "regular unauthorised absence".

We don't understand the "regular" element as this was a one off and we have never had any instance of unathorised absence before.

We have appealed to the local authority but they are just backing the school on a "rules are rules" basis and also state that one week of absence equates to ten seperate half day absences which is therefore "regular" !!!

Surely to god this is not what penalty notices are meant to be about ? We are not bad parents and our kids are not bad kids. We have no regular or even occasional record of unauthorised absences - this was clearly a one-off where we had no real choice for such a complex occasion.

Should we fight this ? Is there any point ?

Any advice appreciated.

OP posts:
Beebee1981 · 08/08/2012 23:52

Hi,
I think you should try again to appeal from the decision. I did it few times and I know you can fight it. I used to take my dd from school before every half term and drop her a few days after the school started. I received few times letters from school and council. As plane tickets are expensive, especially during Xmas and Easter, I had to book 2 weeks before the holidays started. I always ignore these letters until I received the serious one. I took the one with me and I went straight to council to talk to someone who was responsible for that. I was really pleased that after short explanation I have been told that that was school hand on it. The officer told me to talk to school and let them know that I talk to him. He advise me that if I would have any problems with the school I should contacted someone from the council who is lo

Beebee1981 · 08/08/2012 23:57

Sorry, I posted before finished.

.... Who is looking after my dd school and he gave me phone numbe I should call if I would have any problems.

That was really helpful and did work.

I advise you to go to your council and show them the letters you received. The rest is in your hands. Be nice and calm. They can help you.

You haven't done anything wrong.

Good luck !!

prh47bridge · 09/08/2012 08:23

The law is that your child can only miss school if he is too ill to attend or the school has authorised the absence beforehand. Unauthorised absence can lead to a penalty notice for regular unauthorised absence. The fact that the absences were all in a single block is irrelevant.

I disagree with Beebee1981's statement that you haven't done anything wrong. You asked for permission to take your son out of school for 5 days. It was refused. You decided to take him out of school anyway. You have broken the law and they are therefore entitled to issue a penalty notice.

You may be able to persuade the LA that the school's refusal to grant permission for this absence was unreasonable. However, if they continue to back the school's decision you will have to pay. If you do not they can prosecute you which could lead to a much higher fine.

Original poster
Credo33 · 09/08/2012 09:09

Just to clarify, we applied for permission in April and the week concerned was in July so we believed, maybe naively (sp?), that he would be okay by then. We weren't steeped in all the protocols of absence in term time because we'd never done it before.

I tend to agree that we DID get this wrong with hindsight but it wasn't knowingly and we are just shocked that no common-sense has been applied and that nobody has attempted to talk to us let alone take into account 22 years of exemplary schooling records.

OP posts:
HalfSpamHalfBrisket · 09/08/2012 09:13

If one of the children WAS given authorised absence, you must surely have grounds to appeal!

Gatorade · 09/08/2012 09:14

Just pay the fine, you didn't appeal the original refusal to authorise the absence and then took your DC out of school anyway. It seems fair to me.

GetDownNesbitt · 09/08/2012 12:46

If it helps, I know of a parent who has had five separate penalty notices and has yet to pay more than £10, despite attendance averaging 70%. There is very little anyone can do to force you.

tiggytape · 09/08/2012 17:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

prh47bridge · 09/08/2012 18:01

There is very little anyone can do to force you.

Not true.

A penalty notice imposes a fine of £50 rising to £100 if it is not paid within 28 days (these amounts go up to £60 and £120 respectively in December). If the fine remains unpaid the LA can take the parents to court. That can lead to a fine of up to £2,500, community service or, in extreme cases, up to 3 months in jail.

As Tiggytape says, some LAs don't seem to pursue unpaid penalty notices but do you really want to take that risk.

admission · 09/08/2012 19:14

I think that it would be appropriate to write again to the LA, pointing out the facts and that granting one request and not the other was not a reasonable action by the school when they knew the circumstances of the illness of one sibling and the circumstances of the holiday. Before that I would try and get hold of the school's attendance policy - it may well be on the website and see what that says to make sure it concurs with the policy that was carried out in your circumstances. If it does not then that is an obvious thing to be saying in the letter, if it does then it does come down to you broke the rules.
You might get a more sensible approach if it is put down in writing, without getting at all emotional over it - just facts, pointing out the unenviable position you were put in.
However the bottom line might well be that you are going to end up paying the fine.

TantrumsAndOlympicGoldBalloons · 09/08/2012 19:25

It sounds a bit harsh granting the absence for one and not the other, however, I hate to say this but you did take him out of school knowing it would be unauthorized and you took the chance of being fined.

Could you not have appealed when the school said no?

These penalty fines if unpaid will go to a bailiff company who will stick hundreds of pounds of charges on it.

Original poster
Credo33 · 09/08/2012 20:17

The Local Authority won't allow any appeals and state that they can only intervene if the school acted against their own rules in issuing the notice. I must admit that if I knew at any point that five days of absence would result in a penalty notice then I would have taken a different course but the school never disclosed their rules nor can I find them on the school website.

Guess I'll need to find the money !

OP posts:
MamaBear17 · 09/08/2012 21:35

His illness should have been an authorised absence though surely? I think you have been treated harshly in the first instance. The last week of term is generally an 'activities week' anyway so I think they were harsh not to allow you to take your child on holiday. I know that in my school the last week of term is spent going out on trips, awards assemblies and, in some subjects (not mine certainly) watching dvds. I think you may have enough evidence to amount an appeal.

Beebee1981 · 09/08/2012 22:22

Hi,

I still think that school shouldn't do what they did. It seems to me like they wanted to spoil your holiday. Haw could they authorised the other kids absence but separate one. It's against the family integration. I think they trying to make money. However, have you received invoice or just a letter saying that you are going to pay a penalty. If it is just a letter I think you still got time for appeal. If it's an invoice it is better to pay I think.

I still think you haven't done anything wrong. I am wondering what would your DC learn during the last week of school before the holiday?

I hope you still got time.

admission · 09/08/2012 22:23

According to new regs coming in september the fine goes up to £60. In the bumph about the new regs it also says
The local authority must publish a local code of conduct which sets out how the penalty notice scheme will work for all schools in the area.
So it might be worth asking the LA what their code of conduct actually says rather them hiding behind it is up to the head teacher.

pinkteddy · 09/08/2012 22:33

I think its quite unusual for a school to impose a fine without sending warning letters beforehand. Had you already received letters warning you about your son's absence and saying a penalty fine would be imposed if it didn't improve? I would expect attendance to be less than 85% before a school would consider issuing a fine. Was his attendance less than 85%? I believe government guidance states that figure as being cause for concern.

A quick google will probably provide you with some local authority school attendance policies which may give you some guidance.

tiggytape · 09/08/2012 22:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Credo33 · 09/08/2012 23:10

Some clarifications ........

  1. My son has never had an unauthorised absence ever previous to this. His absence % this year was based on authorised absence where he had a bad infection and was near hospitalized. His only unauthorised absence was the holiday.
  1. The school wrote to me at the end of term and letter was received on last day of term. It stated in two sentences that they had applied for a penalty notice. I didn't know what a penalty notice was and it didn't explain what it was or any rights I had to appeal or complain. Their website contains no reference to penalty notices and only Google helped me out !
  1. I immediately wrote back and posted first class but I have heard nothing from them - presumably because they had all gone off for summer (I assumed senior teachers would still be there for a few days).
  1. I then received official notice from the local authority giving me 28 days to pay. I immediately appealed (nicely) and giving lots of reasoning but they said they could not withdraw the notice unless the school had acted outside of their code of conduct (which I can't find anywhere) !
  1. I did ask both the school and the LA what I was realistically supposed to do ..... ie: cancel the family event or leave my son at home ? Neither offered an answer.
  1. On return to school, I asked my son to enquire immediately about what he had missed. His form tutor told him "nothing of significance" and said there was no catch-up work for him. His mates told him all they did was watch videos all week. On the thursday of his absence, the school had a celebration day where kids are rewarded for achievements. My son would have gone to a theme park had he been there so he only missed four days of academic work (if they had been doing any academic work). The LA stated that they viewed the "day out" as a school day ..... presumably because if they didn' then his absence would not reach the five days required in their code (which, again, is not publicly visible) !

At the end of the day, I have no regrets about what we did. The family event included a relation who is terminally ill and so it was very, very important that we were all there. Some things in life are more important than attending school on the last full week of term and I'm just annoyed that the school see financial punishment as the best line of action ...... I would have hoped for a phone call or even a meeting.

OP posts:
tiggytape · 09/08/2012 23:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lemonpie7 · 10/08/2012 02:05

You comitted the offence, just pay the fine. Thats the law. You won't get anywhere by claiming not to know it was the law!

I hope you had a really good time. You say it was worth it, so I'm really pleased you enjoyed yourselves!

Now just pay up before the situation deteriorates further.

IT'S A FAIR COP!

lemonpie7 · 10/08/2012 02:05

Sorry, didn't mean to shout, caps lock was on

GetDownNesbitt · 10/08/2012 08:13

Sorry to argue, but we do prosecute, pursue through court etc. mother in the case I mentioned turns up, says she can't pay, is given a payment plan and goes home. Whole thing starts again. Has been going on a year. The court just does the same thing each time.

Theas18 · 10/08/2012 08:38

Your child must have had a lot of time off if his attendance was 2% below the minimum require BEFORE you took him on holiday!

You took him for your own reasons. Pay the fine.

Original poster
Credo33 · 10/08/2012 09:02

Will do ! Just wanted to read up on the experiences of others in similar situations. Thanks for all the advice.

OP posts:
admission · 10/08/2012 17:18

There are two different situations here. People are quoting the figure of 85% attendance before any fine happens, that is not the case.
If a pupil has attendance below 85%, recently raised from 80%, then they are considered to be persistently absent from school. That figure is going to start a train of events via EWO etc that will end up in court if attendance does not improve.
However any school, providing they are following the LA protocol on penalty notices, can instigate a penalty notice for any unauthorised absence. It does not need 5 days or any other number of days, it is about what the school decides to do about the unauthorised absence.
My guess is that somebody in the school took exception to your son taking the days off when you knew that the request had been turned down.
That does not however in my opinion excuse the school from making what is an original barmy decision to allow one sibling the time off as authorised absence but not the other, it should have been yes or no for both. What is not really clear to me is whether having got the letter saying no to the authorised absence you actually talked to the school about the inconsistency of the decisions and the valid reasons for the trip or whether you just went ahead any way.