son wants to sit 11+

[daisydoodoo]

My yr 5 son has started getting letters home about the entrance exams for the 11+. He is a bright boy, but in all reality probably not of grammar school standard, my dilemma lies in that we had decided not to put him forward for the tests and to apply to the two good local schools in September, when he is yr 6.

The first letter about an information evening came home last week, we (myself and xh) did not attend as this wasn't in the plan. However ds2 seems determined he wants to sit it. Shall we let him? Would he perhaps be resentful if we decided not to let him, that in future years he might think what if?

I did find some examples of the 11+ online last night, he got 80% on verbal reasoning, 80% on non verbal reasoning, 90% on english and 85% on maths, this was without any revision and on the spur of the moment.

I guess my reluctance comes from his teacher telling us not to bother, as in her words hes bright and very clever but far too lazy in his work and seriously under acheiveing! and yes we have had a conversation with her about encouraging him to try harder in class and to get him enthusiastic regarding school work. We do encourage him at home and he is a prolific reader and always seeking information at home.

What would you do?

Let him take it. I would seriously resent my parents telling me I couldn't take an exam if I wanted to. And there would always be what ifs, because you deliberately ensured they would remain what ifs.

I would let him have a go. If he doesn't pass at least it sounds as though you have two good non selective schools he can go to.

I would let him do it if he is intent on taking it - irrespective of whether he is likely to pass or not. You don't want to feed future resentment

Teachers often have their own ideas of what constitutes an 'achieving child.' at the information evening at DS2's school last year you'd have thought you had to be a potential astronaut recruit from the way his teachers were talking!
Sometimes there's also the agenda that primary schools, certainly in our county, are not nn support of the grammar system, so, subconsciouy or otherwise, try and put people off.

The same teachers had been quite dismissive of his abilities since he joined the school in y3, but luckily I'd already seen his brother and sister throgh entry, so knew full well he was up to it. I think if he'd been our first and we hadn't already been familiar with the process, we would have thought twice about entering him.

Those scores sound pretty high, btw, although the practise tests do get harder as you progress through. Even so, they do indicate that he can cope with that level of work.

My DH wasn't entered for grammar school but his sister had been; his head teacher at the time was keen on the new comp which was 'just as good,' and of course stressed that he'd go to the secondary modern if he failed. His sister went to a school which is regularly in the top three nationally for results, while he took a circuitous route to his current level of education and professional experience. It's not something he dwells on, but he still can't understand why no one could see that he was easily bright enough to breeze through.

Ignore that teacher and have faith in your son's enthusiasm and obvious intelligence. Some teachers just can't engage the bright kids, and have rigid ideas of what constitutes an able child.

Oh, and did I say you should let him take the test? .

I agree - let him take it. So long as you prepare him for the fact that he may not pass and that competition can be fierce. His teacher believes he is "under achieving" - perhaps the 11+ may spur him on give he is keen to do it.

I would certainly let him take it if he wants to.
Perhaps, if he does get in to Grammar school, it would put an end to his laziness and under achieving; as I would have thought this is less likely to be tolerated in such a results driven environment?

TBH, his teacher seems to have written him off.

I also own a very bright but lazy boy - my view was that in a non-selective environment he would coast along with minimal effort. Selective would push him.

Of course you should let him take it.

If he really wants to sit the exam, he'll probably do well. His test scores are good. If it's a super-selective you might have to prepare him for not getting a place but, as long as he understands that, you have nothing to lose by trying.

My history teacher once told me I was too lazy to pass my GCSEs. She'd written me off completely at the age of 15. Luckily, my parents and I ignored her - and now my MSc tutor is recommending I apply for PhD funding next year

What would you do?

Tell him he can as long as he stops being lazy and starts achieving.

My brother is a year older than me and didn't work at school yet passed the exam for academic prestigious private school with huge scholarship but my parents chose not to send him as they were worried about costs like uniform. I wasn't allowed to sit the exams and still feel a bit resentful about this 30 years later. Let him.

My Y5 boy would answer this as follows:

" it is ALWAYS better to try, than not to try. As if you try, there is a chance, even if it is a small chance. If you don't try you don't even have a chance at all". (said this to his younger brother when he was not sure about whether to try to go for judo grading)

I was quite proud of him for this sentiment (smug emoticon)

Seriously, do you think he would be scarred for life if he does not get in? Do you want to protect him from disappointment by letting him aim as low as possible? I think it is a very modern, yet dangerous way of thinking. And shame on the teacher!

This might motivate him to work a bit harder and make the most of his (obvious) intelligence! go go go

Definitely let him take it.

If he takes it then the results are 100% down to him - pass or fail.

If you stop him taking it, he will always wonder "what if" and may feel you are to blame for stopping him.

At age 8, my parents and ballet teacher decided not to enter me for a ballet exam. I fought and nagged them until I was allowed to do the preparation classes and exam. I scrapped a pass. I'm very proud of that pass, they said I couldn't do it and I did. I gave up ballet shortly afterwards as it didn't come naturally, but I'm very glad I was allowed to do the exam. However, I am a bit like that, dogged determination in the face of non-existent talent.

SoupDragon own

I'd let him take it OP.

Yes, definitely let him take it. If he's going into it from his own initiative, and he passes, he'll go to the GS with a positive attitude and it will probably help him pull his socks up. If you don't let him, what message does that send to him? He'd be likely to go to the other school and not bother. The sad fact is there is likely to be further to fall in a comprehensive - the GS will expect all its children to get grades A-C and many A/A. The comp may be happy with 5C for the tables.

Find out what style of tests they do at this school and get him some Bond books or whatever for him to do over the summer holiday.

You can still apply to the other schools. Most areas now operate 'equal preference' - the school can't take into account where you placed them on the form. If you put GS first then A and B, if your son doesn't get the GS place then it should be treated exactly as if you'd only put A and B

I'm in the same position with DD1. She is not very academic at all, struggles with dyslexia, still can't tell the time, needs help with 99% of homework etc. But she is determined to sit the 11+ even though it only opens up the possibility of one more school (the local girls' grammar) which I think she would hate. (I went there, very work driven, lots of self reliance, LOTS of rules).
Still, I have decided to let her, I can't really say "I'm not going to let you because I think you'll fail" can I :(

Have a look at the elevenplus website. It can be a leetle intense but there is much good sense and advice there. There's a forum, divided into areas. If you click into your are, there should be advice as to the constitution of your area's eleven plus exams, and the sort of practise books you can buy for your son to look at, and do.

There's also a specific section about each type of exam. These are worth a look at too. Even the seemingly obvious ones, such as essay writing and comprehension.

It's the work of an evening to look at the website, and a few weeks to familiarise by way of available (from W H SMith, usually) resources.

It's not fair to send him into an exam without having familiarised himself with what the papers are likely to look like. It really isn't. You wouldn't try and bake your first cake without a recipe, or drive a car without a couple of lessons, would you? This is no different.

With scores like that, it really is a question of familiarisation.

So the teacher - and you seem to agree - think your son is unenthusiastic about school/academic stuff? Then the last thing you want to do is not pick up the ball when he shows a sign of wanting to play. For that reason alone you should have a go, irrespective of the yays and nays of 11+. You're encouraging a sign of keenness. Pour water on it and pray it flourishes!! Even if he doesn't get a grammar school place, you'll be telling him you take him seriously when he shows signs of being determined about something.

By the way, whether or not he does go in for the 11+, it is utterly bonkers to categorise him as "lazy", or whatever, at this age. Children have a horrible tendency to live down to expectations, so it is pretty much always a good idea to tell yourself, firmly, that they are a whole rainbow of possibilities, rather than stuffing them into a shoebox so early in life.

I don't know whether the rules have changed since we went through this, but if they haven't I will offer you a caution. Our DD passed the 11+. According to the LEA she got some of the highest marks in the area. BUT the HT was anti-grammar and anti-DD and had put the HTs recommendation as High School (telling us she was putting borderline). As I say, this was years ago so it could be different now, but at that time a High School recommendation from the school meant she was never going to get a grammar place, despite passing higher than most of her cohort.

The first appeal was a farce and we were preparing for the face to face one when she got into an indie school on the strength of her 11+ scores The Head continued to fight us through the appeal procedure. Luckily the deputy (DD's form teacher) was on our side, as we were worried the HT would block her indie place as well.

So before allowing your DS to take the test it would be as well to check (a) the admission arrangements and (b) what the school say.

I will add that DS3 is bright but lazy and his primary HT (not the same one - we moved him) said she genuinely didn't know whether he'd get in but didn't block us and he passed easily.

Don?t mean to be personal or rude but if it takes this to make you see sense, I?d say this is a no brainer. In the first instance, what makes you say your son is ?not of grammar school standard?? What is grammar school standard?

I would totally ignore what his teacher says. It seems to me that she (the teacher) needs to go to grammar school herself to get an education. I know many teachers and some head teachers are natural born losers, including my DC?s former head teacher but that?s another story.

It seems to me your son is naturally gifted but has so far not been guided correctly which has resulted in him getting lazy. I would advise let him take the grammar entrance tests. Support and encourage him and please show an immense interest YOURSELF that you would like to see him succeed. Invest in all the material and help required, not only online questions but also workbooks or even a knowledgeable tutor to give him a better than fighting chance. Your son?s 'laziness? may just disappear once he meets the right challenges.

One question: What?s there to stop him from entering the grammar exams as well as to apply to the two good local schools in September, when he is yr 6?

If he doesn't try he can't fail. but equally, if he doesn't try he definitely can't succeed.

Unless he is the sensitive type who would be so crushed by the weight of failure that this would ruin his entire life (not terribl likely), then what does he have to lose by having a go?

Tell him to try and have fun and enjoy the exam. If he passes, great - if he fails, he gets to go to the school you want him to go to anyway!

If HE wants to do it then encourage him, but always discuss the alternatives with him.

Well, obviously let him do it.

But daisy, you found tests online last night so after school on a Friday night he did four 50 minute tests !!!! What on earth time did he get to bed? Perhaps you did them back to back?

should add that as of this year grammar schools are required to tell parents pass or fail before filling in the CAF

But in any case, most places it doesn't matter anyway. My DD passed the 11+ but as we were out of catchment that wasn't enough, she was first on the reserve list for residual places. We didn't know if she had a place till the allocation letters came out. But if she hadnt got a place it would have been exactly as if the GS hadn't been listed at all. I'm not sure if all LEAs do this but I believe its the norm now - you simply put your true preference.

Sab - I never heard anything about 'HT recommendations' - the GS places were allocated purely on the basis of 11+ results. I suppose something like that could come into play if there was an appeal, but not for the initial allocation.