Graveney - Renting in catchment for admissions purposes

[StockwellLiving]

I am thinking about renting for a 12 month period or so from this summer to cover up to beginning of Y7 for DD in Sept 2013. And then moving back out.

I know (most people think) renting is wrong (and often discussed here). I actually also think its wrong, but I also know others do it (and not sure why we should be the only one not "playing the game", and I do want to avoid my local catchment school (have no religion, no money (for indies), average DD with no chance of her passing selection tests).

I am not starting this thread to get into the rights and wrongs of it - I only want to ask the very specific question: Do "renters" get caught and are places actually withdrawn?

I am asking about Graveney, not in general. I know from threads on MN that some LAs do try and look into short-term renting. But somehow I think that this particular school and this particular LA don't really care (happy to have aspirational middle classes moving into catchment) ...... so do they look into whether the rental is permanent or not, whether the renters have an owned (proper) home (rented out for a year)

Just wondering as it seems its increasingly popular to do this ....

StockwellLiving: "Agree that it?s morally equilavent ? in both cases someone else (perhaps someone long established in the community) is displaced - but buying seems not to be cheating ? there was a thread on this distinction before. Can?t find it right now."

Yep - I started a thread about that last year here. And it comes up a lot on these threads. (Some if not all) MNs seem less inclined to criticise others who start praying (or start praying more intensively), have their DCs learn an instrument, tutor, move, and so on, all (apart from the praying bit) using financial muscle to get an advantage for their DC (necessarily over and above someone elses). But, oh dear, OP, if you start renting for that .....

@ohdearconfused. Couldn't agree with you more. My point entirely. And with all due respect, even the extensive church chores many of the the Middle Class mums embarked on in order to secure a place in some of the top faith schools, has also been deemed as elitist and banned as a criteria from many of these schools also (Coloma being the most recent www.eastlondonlines.co.uk/2011/11/coloma-accused-of-unfair-admissions-rules/). It was deemed that all the extra involvement in the church can only be made by well off parents where wealthy dad is at work looking after the whole family, giving mummy plenty of time to do the church chores - something a single mother, for example, wouldn't have the time to do. Financial muscle at play once again. And literally, I had a friend who sold her house when her ds started in year 5 and bought a house a couple of streets away from Langley Boys. Low and behold, got offered a place, this year. There are some stained halo's I think.

Not sure what you meant by your last line though...'But, oh dear, OP, if you start renting for that .....'

I meant: if you starting renting short-term (OPs question) for the advantage conferred by all these activities, then the criticism comes ....

btw: your link didn't work. Fixed it here

@ohdearconfused: Oh I see...yes of course, that's right.

I know of a parent wanting to get their delightful ds into a particularly great primary school, just three streets away from where she lived (the poorer part of a lush area). For her child to be deserving of a place there, would have taken three times the amount of her current property. For those with the financial clout however, they buy homes next door and get a place. Where is the morality in that?

Thanks for fixing link btw:)

There is always going to be people that will abuse the system but maybe we should be pleased that our schools have diversity. By the way, Coloma has changed their admission policy this year by missing out 'what you do for the church etc' although I don't think it is just for middle class mums - there is loads that can be done within the church community. I work full time but read at mass and also look after the little ones at liturgy. I'm not a single mum but my dh is an athiest so it's up to me to take dcs to mass etc. and get involved in the church community.

@AngelEyes46, even though hubby's an atheist, there are still bits he's keeping balanced at home emotionally and financially allowing you the time and the brain power to do the things you do at church. Often with the mental stress and the financial hardship involved in raising a child/ren single handily, there's only time to get to church weekly and collapse on your knees to pray for help before rushing back home to juggle life in preparation for the toxic hours of the Monday morning - single handily. PS: One way to get up the nose of a lone parent is to even think that because your husband or partner doesn't get involved with one aspect of family life, that your pressures, challenges and issues are comparable in some way.

yes - see your point although I have got single parent friends who do manage to do something like 'help at scouts functions' - her ds attends scouts so does fit in. I think the advantage the 'middle class' family has is that they know the game. As in above, move to the 'right' area when applying, move wherever after and yeehah for siblings, do 'just' enough in making yourself known to the church and you're in at your faith school. Tutor your kids (even if you do it yourself) and better chance in attending grammar.

@EDUcrazy and AngelEyes46 - There is a boys secondary school near me and the priest is required to fill in a form outlining mass attendance. Regular mass attendace results in better chances of getting a place.

Last September the headmaster asked boys within the school to raise their hands if they regularly went to mass. It transpires that most of the boys in the school did not take part in regular attendance (including those who had just joined). As I understand it parent's do not fill in these forms but seems that some of the forms are not reflecting the true picture.

Whilst I agree that there are a number of people out there who abuse the system which I completely dissaprove with, in this case it seems that it's not just parent's who are at fault.

@AngelEyes46 For sure, some single parents have better support networks than others. Just having a read through the lone parent section is evidence of that. Some with no family support and no contact with dad resulting in only 2 nights out in the last four years to those having Mums that live locally. Nonetheless, I know of one mum with her mum living just a five minute drive away who works full time and permanently has grooves in her forehead from the pressure of it all - especially if you still want the best for your kids. In fact she has recently been signed off from her high powered job with stress.

But yes I agree, it's simply the middle class mums who knows how to play the system. It was a stay at home middle class mum who gave me the list of activities she was doing at her local church to get her ds into the likes of The London Oratory. However, she had overlooked, until the open evening, the need for her ds to be baptised before he was six months old, so went private.

@Mumwithtwokids Are you serious? That's outrageous. Usually you have to sign a book on attendance, or the priest really does have to know you well. Equally I know of a mum who put in that she attended weekly and her priest refused to back it up. She had a real tussle with him but he wouldn't back down.

I'm totally serious and can give you countless examples.

So what are you going to do, StockwellLiving?

Educarzy are your sure:

"it's simply the middle class mums who knows how to play the system"

Do you live in London?

My perception is that middle class families with a SAHM can afford, as we did, for the mother to go back to work to buy their way out.

The scramble for places in decent schools is often by the less well off working families often, though not necessarily, recent immigrants, who are determined to do the best for their children despite limited resources.

So plenty of kids at a popular local primary "living" with grandparents and a lovely Latina mum we saw at the bus stop who tried for years before getting a place at a sought after out-of-catchment primary. When transferring the child, other parents were curious why she would take her child across town rather than attend the school down the road. Hard to explain that it was this very lack of ambition that she wanted her child to escape.

@Blu - still mulling it over, but I have sort of concluded the following:

i. Graveney/Wandsworth don't really care about people doing what we are thinking of doing. They are happy to be a middle class magnet (see recent change on sibling rule allowed even for selective students - most of whom have been tutored to kingdom come and are very middle class!)

ii. A couple of posters mentioned some occasional people being shopped/caught/places withdrawn. But as these posts are anonymous and somewhat contradicts the word in DCs' playground am not sure really if that is a real risk (bearing in mind point i).

iii. If people are caught every now and again its - I think - Graveney/Wandsworth simply trying to placate the (justifiable) local anger and their heart is not really into it.

iv. People have rightly pointed out Graveney is not the holy grail and there are other arguably better schools (unless your DC is in the top stream), but any other within a commute seem to require a move/rent also. I have no evidence for it, but my guess is Dunraven (Lambeth not Wandsworth) will care more and more likely withdraw a place.

So still on the cards, but a little wavering.

I'd really like some reliable stats on how many places are withdrawn (compared to number of cheats). Perhaps I'll ask the school - but time is short - and as they won't know the number of cheats not a good guage of the real risk either.

As I say, didn't want to get into morals ....

I wonder if there are any such stats?
Of course there won't be about ratio to 'system players'.

I have heard of children being hoiked out of playgrounds in Southwark, but have never heard of a place at Dunraven being revoked. Or in any Lambeth school.
But then I hardly ever hear about any places being withdrawn or refused on these grounds. Probably Dunraven's requirement that you provide a Council tax and utility bill at application stage offers some protection.

I think there is a risk that this thread has alerted the school and potential local applicants to what is going on. If I was a local family who just missed out on distance, I would certainly ask the admissions authority on appeal just what they had done to address the risks of short term renters taking places.

As OP points out, I think the school already knows this goes on (and likely doesn't really care). Local applicants will also already know .....

Thanks TiggyTape - yes lots more on the morals there, and intersting what expert says re Wandsworth ....

Interesting debate also as to how long a move needs to be before its considered "permanent" - if you wanted to live in the catchment school for say 5 years (until GCSE) it would seem to be permanent. However, at the time of application (if you are still keeping your old house) how can local authority distinguish the two (it can't look into the future)? Rhetorical question - discussed above - they don't! Instead, you need to persuade them that you really are planning to stay that long. I know that's not me, but then that seems unfair on the person who was genuining moving for that period (but keeping old house as a rental property or whatever).

Perhaps I will move permanently (but then what if I can't sell in the next six months or so)?

I heard a rumour recently about someone who had moved their child's school and rented a flat to try and get into Holland Park School (Kensington & Chelsea). The admissions criteria is sibling, then RBKC primary school and distance. I found it unbelievable but perhaps it is true. I know the council are alert to cheats for certain primary schools but I wonder if they are looking at secondaries too.

Here, a house move is considered permanent IF the old house is sold or if it obviously not returnable to e.g. divided into student flats, condemned as unfit for habitation or 150 miles away.

It is considered suspect - in the same way as short term renting is - if the house is relatively local (but less favourable for school admissions). As I have said above, for the school I have knowledge of they have not 'codified' it into 'renting when you own another house is not allowed', but collect information about all addresses - during primary school + through year 7 - and investigate any changes of address which appear to play the system, in particular to determine wheher a previous address is still owned by the family. The onus is on families investigated to provide evidence that the move was for other reasons if a previous house is still owned.

Selling a house outside catchment and buying a new one within catchment IS, however, regarded as a permanent move. Yes, such a move could be done 'for a good school' BUT to move everything, become part of a local community and then go to the local school is not the same as moving while retaining another local house. If it became against admissions rules to buy a house in the vicinity of a school when you have nowhere else to live, then families who have to move due to job changes etc would be in a very difficult situation!

StockwellLiving - given what BeingFluffy says about alerting the school, did you not consider using a less specific title, username and keeping the school name disguised? One might think that this whole thread would undermine the success of any attempt to slip through a loophole....

I did actually (I don't really live in Stockwell - so sorry to those would-be cheaters who do ....), ....

But impossible to get info on Graveney (specifically) by being general - so alerting them () is a risk I had to take ...

I don't really think (with all due respect to the power of MN) that this thread will lead them to be more vigilant. :o

StockwellLiving - no offence meant to you as I know you are trying to do the best for your child. However if I was a parent who just missed out on distance and was appealing, I would be grilling the admissions authority on exactly what they had done to weed out those living at temporary addresses.

@NeedMoresleep I defo am a Londoner, through and through!!! There's an article here that better explains the MC's SAHM's ability to better play the system in terms of securing a place at the top faith schools, for example www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1325596/Faith-schools-biased-middle-classes-using-points-based-admissions.html. There are many more. Moreover, I have two groups of Mummy mates, so to speak. The ones form my sons school, who would be better described as Working Class and those from my Son's Football team, who are defo more MC's. I am passionate about education and could have endless conversations on the topic, especially leading up to secondary school, with the football Mums, whilst amongst the school mums, I was deemed as the obsessed one on the topic (I'm sure secretly they would dodge me during the months leading up to selection and the d-day results). I would suspect also that just because two middle class parents are working, in this day and age, it still doesn't mean they can afford to go private to buy their way out - just a thought. Remember too, middle class is defined as a mindset, the actual money in the bank is a small contributory factor.

It was a MC SAHM mum from the football crew who was reeling off to me her long checklist of the activities she and her peers were doing for the church in order to secure a place at one of London's top faith schools. They still had to end up going private mind you (without going back to work herself) as they had overlooked the age he got baptised at which wasn't early enough.

The immigrant story is a different case entirely. Their success and aspirations defy all known statistics relating to those on low incomes and their success when it comes to education. There are some interesting articles here 1. www.jrf.org.uk/publications/educational-attainment-poor-children 2. www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/mar/29/homework-linked-better-school-results. Immigrants too, take nothing for granted and grateful for the educational opportunities here that many take for granted. The long and short of it is that aspirations is the key, not money or class, which is largely resident amongst the MC's and immigrants.

@Stockwell - quick question (possibly a silly one:), if the only groups worth getting into at Graveney is the top two steams (which I must admit I too have heard over the years), why the hassle of going there? Why not just tutor your kid to within an inch of his life (probably necessary to get the 100% needed to secure a place) and get a legit place that way. PS. Remember, I'm the one not passing judgement either way, more asking to save yourself the headache and the worry of getting the place whipped from under your feet:)